HC Deb 18 December 1812 vol 24 cc324-35

The House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply, to which the Message of the Prince Regent respecting the invasion of Russia was referred. The Message being read,

The Chancellor of the Exchequer

then said, that had it not been for some intimations of intended opposition which the reading of the Message had produced last night, he should have left the question ha was about to propose to be decided by the unbiassed judgment and feelings of the House, with scarcely any attempt at observation. He still hoped that four-and-twenty-hours reflection might have convinced the gentlemen from whom those intimations proceeded, of the propriety of the measure recommended by his Royal Highness; and in that hope he should trespass but a short time on the attention of the committee, and avoid as much as possible every topic upon which a difference of opinion could be entertained, because he felt that nothing could add so much to the grace and dignity of the proceeding, or stamp so much value on the gift which it was proposed to bestow, as its being sanctioned by the unanimous voice of the Commons of the United Kingdom.

He first felt himself bound to give some account of the particular time at which the measure was proposed, because some gentlemen had spoken of it as a surprize upon the House, and appeared to think that it was on that account objectionable. It was, indeed, in one sense, a surprize, not only upon the House, but upon his Majesty's ministers; for it arose out of events which could not have been anticipated, and the intelligence of which had but just reached this country; events of the most important and gratifying, yet, in some respects, of the most melancholy nature. While the enemy remained upon the Russian territory it was obvious that no relief of the kind now proposed could have been afforded; because it could neither have been administered with certainty, nor enjoyed in security. But we have now the satisfaction to know, that the French armies have been driven with discomfiture and disgrace from the limits of the Russian empire. This, he hoped, would sufficiently account for the grant not being proposed at an earlier season, and he thought it would be obvious to every gentleman that it could not be delayed, without losing the grace and merit of a spontaneous gift, and sacrificing the dignity of the House, whom it became rather to lead than to follow the impulse of public opinion: for he was convinced that, if parliament were even for a few days to hesitate, the feelings of the people of this country would be so excited as to break out in some voluntary acts of public generosity, and parliament might be compelled to imitate an example which it better became them to give.

The intelligence, however, to which he more particularly alluded, as rendering this measure expedient, was that of a subscription entered into at Petersburg!), at the head of which the Empresses and the rest of the royal family had placed themselves, for the relief of the greatest sufferers by the French invasion. Till this step was taken, it might have been doubted whether there were any practicable means of administering those comforts which the liberality of this country must wish to supply, but which would now be easy of application through the medium of the committers appointed for that purpose in Russia, who would enquire into particular cases, and apply relief where it most was needed, with the same anxious solicitude and discriminating care which had been so often displayed in similar cases in this country.

In what manner the relief should be applied, whether in money or in any supply of necessary articles, or by a clue mixture of both modes, he could not at the moment be prepared to state. It might be proper on this subject to leave much to the discretion of our ambassador at the court of Petersburgh, and at all events to consult him upon the subject; in which no time need be lost, as the ambassador might be instructed to make such advances as were necessary, upon account.

With regard to the amount of the sum, he was aware that it could not be commensurate with the extended misery, to the alleviation of which it was to be directed. On the other hand, it would not become the liberality of this country to offer to our allies, suffering in our cause and the general cause of Europe, not less than in their own, a scanty and penurious grant.—Allies he repeated, suffering in our cause, as well as in their own, for the contest in which Russia was engaged, was not merely one of the greatest importance to the political interests of Great Britain, but immediately connected with the direct interests of those manufacturing bodies whose sufferings had been invidiously stated as an objection to the grant. That the manufacturers had suffered from many causes, and especially from the loss of the American trade, he was far from denying; but the glorious successes of the Russian arms appeared to offer an ample compensation for the loss of the American market, in the extended markets of Europe, which now seemed about to open to their industry. In this point of view he was persuaded that those manufacturers who had been alluded to, would be among the first to ap- prove this grant, as a, tribute of gratitude I for those heroic exertions to which they were so greatly indebted. Every day, and even every hour brought intelligence of the reviving activity which these successes had infused into British commerce,

The sum he was about to propose was 200,000l. a larger amount than had ever before been voted by parliament for a similar purpose, but which the occasion required to be larger, because the sufferings Were more extensive, and the self devotion and heroism which had marked the conduct of those who endured it, unequalled, he believed, in the annals of the world. With regard to the extent of suffering, it was sufficient to view upon the map the wide range of country to which devastation had been spread, and to reflect that a great and ancient capital with many other towns had been destroyed, and that throughout so extensive a tract scarcely a private dwelling remained to shelter its lately peaceful and secure inhabitants. Thousands, he feared he might even say hundreds of thousands, were driven houseless into the forests, exposed to all the rigours of a Russian winter, and this they willingly endured, rather than betray the honour of their country and submit to the domination of a foreign invader. It was to relieve this great and complicated misery that he called upon the House of Commons to step forward. To relieve it entirely was, indeed, beyond human power; but much might be done by the liberality of their sympathizing countrymen united with the bounty of this nation, and it was, in all events, a consolation to the afflicted to know, that there were hearts which felt for their woe, and were ready to administer to their wants. We must not forget the difference between the price of necessary articles, and the manners of the people in Russia and here, and that a sum which might here appear inconsiderable, would there afford a seasonable and valuable supply. The sum, however, which he was about to propose, could not, in any sense, be called inconsiderable, and he trusted it would be found most extensively useful. But whatever opinion might be entertained on this point, there could be no doubt that the disposition to assist the distress of the Russians, which this proceeding would evince, must carry satisfaction to every heart in Russia, and tend to bind the closer those habits of connection which common interests and long experience pointed out as so advantageous to both. He trusted that it would lay the foundation of an alliance more durable and more closely cemented than any political or diplomatic arrangement could frame. Every traveller who had visited Russia would bear witness how much the hearts*of the people were actuated by good will towards this country; and he trusted that this feeling would now receive greater force. Their gratitude would more than equal our liberality; and on these grounds, without further trespassing on the patience of the committee, and leaving the question rather to their own feelings and judgment, upon facts of unquestionable notoriety, than endeavouring by any argument of his to persuade them to the vote, he begged leave to conclude by moving," That it is the opinion of the committee, that the sum of 200,000l. be granted to his Majesty to enable his Majesty to afford relief to such parts of the Russian empire as have suffered from the invasion of the enemy."

Mr. Ponsonby

declared, that it certainly was his intention to vote for the proposed grant, but it was not on account of any of the reasons stated by the right hon. gentleman, nor was it because the terms in which the Message was conceived, were such as were most likely to induce the House to comply with its request. The Message stated the wish of the government to be, to afford "speedy relief" to the suffering Russians; and after this declaration, the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer had said, that before any relief could be granted, it would be necessary to communicate with our ambassador at Petersburgh; so that it would arrive at the end of the winter, when it would be unnecessary. Effectual relief was held out as attainable; but it would not be in the power of the country, not only if it were as liberal but as extravagant, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer could wish, to afford it. But though it was his opinion, that the relief to the sufferers would neither be speedy nor effectual, he should not vote against the proposed grant. But he voted for it, not under the supposition that any of it would go to the Russian peasant, but as a present to the Russian emperor, and lest we should seem to manifest a coldness or backwardness with respect to the noble struggle in which he was engaged. Thinking thus, he did not like the cant of this begging Message, which came to the House under the hypocritical pretence of asking alms for the people For the sufferings of the people of this country, he felt as much as any man; and if the question were simply, to take a sum from the sufferers of England to give to those of Russia, he should give it his negative. The distresses in England, it might be proper to remark, though brought on partly by causes beyond the controul of government, had been in part caused by circumstances which it would have been in their power to prevent. If speedy and conciliatory measures had been adopted with regard to America, a very large portion of this distress would not have existed. At the beginning of the session, the noble lord opposite (Castlereagh) had said, that the most effectual way of assisting Russia,—the way in which that country wished to be assisted,—was, by efforts in Spain: that noble lord had also said, that efforts as great as the power of the country would admit of had been made; that the manner in which that campaign had ended, was not to be attributed to failure on the part of ministers, but to the limited resources of the country; that the country, in fact, was unable to do any thing more; but now came this proposition, to send 200,000l. not to assist Spain, but Russia, while this last power wished it to be applied to Spain. He appealed to every gentleman present whether his statement of what had been said was not accurate. He should be glad to know whether all means had been taken by the government to render the country able to support this additional expence? The Bill which had been brought forward by an hon. gentleman during the lass session, the Sinecure Bill, would, had it passed, have afforded enough for this grant. It might be said that the Bill had passed that House; but though it might not be proper to allude to what had passed elsewhere, he could not help remarking, that if ministers were as earnest in their wishes for the abolition of useless places, as other members in that House, the event would have been different; or thus much of the session would not have passed, without a message on that subject from the crown. If, however, the House were to negative this grant, more harm would be done to the sufferers of this country, than could be retrieved by the possession of the 200,000l. Russia had been brought to the state in which she was, by refusing to submit to the continental system; and if the result of the struggle were to enable her to keep open the markets of that vast empire to our manufactures, she would soon repay the sum we might now advance. This he admitted; and if the noble lord had openly come forward, and stated the necessity of it, he should have felt pleasure in concurring in the grant. But in saying this, he hoped he should not be thought to patronize the system of subsidizing. The state of things in Russia arose from her having engaged in this virtuous struggle unbought by us. The situation to which she would have been reduced by an alliance with France, was before her eyes, and without communication with this country, or, if with communication, he was convinced, without assurance of support, she nobly took her part. For these reasons he should support the vote; and he was anxious that it might be seen by the distressed manufacturers, that it was not from any insensibility to their sufferings, that the vote of one member, at least, was determined, but by a sincere conviction that their interests would have been more injured-than served by refusing this grant.

Mr. Bathurst

said, that the right hon. gentleman had not been happy in the selection of his topics, which were not reasons against the grant, but insinuations against the motives of those who had introduced it. The word "speedy" applied, not to the absolute length of time, but to the nature of the case. If, on communication with our ambassador at Peters-burgh, relief in specie should be judged expedient, there could be no difficulty in making it immediate. The word "effectual" had been applied, not to the relief afforded by this government alone, but in conjunction with that of Russia. To what pitch the munificence of Russia might extend he did not know, but he hoped, that in conjunction with the aid afforded by us, it would be effectual to the great object intended. The next objection was, that it would go, not to the sufferers, but to the Russian treasury, and under this persuasion, the right hon. gentleman had thought the Message properly designated by cant or hypocritical, which terms (had that conception been correct); would, not have been misapplied. But did that right hon. gentleman think, that the paltry sum of 200,000l. could be thought of as an aid to Russia in such a war as she was engaged in? The next objection regarded Spain, and ministers had been accused of contradiction in withdrawing this sum from Spain, and applying it to Russia. This had received a negative from his side of the House, not on account of any incur- redness in the right hon. gentleman's statement of what had been said, but because that had been spoken of as to be applied in aid of the government, which was intended for the relief of the people. The right hon. gentleman had justly stated, that more good would be done to our manufacturers by granting this sum to conciliate Russia, than by doling it out among them; but with this had been mixed up the consideration of our policy as to America. Without attempting to enter on this question at present, it was not so clear as that right hon. gentleman seemed to imply, that hostilities had arisen entirely from the misconduct of government, and not at all from the spirit of the Americans. He was astonished to hear the right hon. gentleman speak as he had done of the Sinecure Offices' Bill. It was true, that by a total disregard of vested interests, a fund might be produced; but as to the Bill, it had been acknowledged last session by the hon. gentleman who proposed it, that though it would be grateful to public feeling, yet in a pecuniary sense it would be nugatory.

Mr. Ponsonby,

in explanation, said, that as it was the duty of the Russian government to protect its own subjects, this could operate in no other way than as a subsidy to that government. As to the Sinecure Bill, he did not mean that the whole sum of 200,000l. would be found in the Treasury, but that by that measure a saving would be effected equal to the interest of that sum, which must be funded; and of which the interest must now be paid by the people.

Mr. Whitbread

was sorry to say, that the grant would not pass unanimously. On the Message being first read it had struck him that the grant was not proper; and on discussion with friends whom he respected, and who entertained sentimentson the subject different from his own, he had not found reason to change his opinion. Some of the grounds of his dissent from the grant had been stated by his right hon. friend. He did not, moreover, think it just to this country to take money out of the pockets of our starving manufacturers, to apply it to sufferers to whom, unhappily, it could be of no use. Those unfortunate beings who, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer had stated, had sought shelter from the severity of a Russian winter in their forests, were now, alas! as senseless as the snow with which they were surrounded: and how, if they continued to exist, could the small sum which they were that night called on to vote, afford them relief? Though the contest in Russia might have a tendency to increase our own security, yet to imagine that this 200,000l. could be a bond of unity between that nation and ourselves, would be to contradict the testimony of experience. It had been the interest of Russia to enter into amity with us; she had acted in pursuance of that interest, and in accordance with that interest she would act hereafter. It had been said, that committees of nobles had been formed—that the emperor had exerted himself to afford relief, by rebuilding habitations, and by alleviating the poignant misery of the sufferers. It did, indeed, behove the Russian government to do away with ail the pomp of state—to apply all the resources of the empire to this object: it was more particularly the duty of that government to do so, from the commission of an act, singular in modern history—the conflagration of Moscow. This grant could be considered as no other than a subsidy in aid of the war in Russia; for by discharging the Russian government of the duty of applying a sum equal to this to its suffering subjects, it left an equal sum applicable to the purpose of driving the French from the empire, or to that of crushing their power. It was a subsidy then—a paltry and contemptible subsidy as to the purpose of the war. From the resistance of Russia, if wisely taken advantage of, the greatest blessings might ensue. This, however, was as yet uncertain. In the mean time, there were in some parts of this country cases of as crying distress, as, out of the reach of war, could possibly be. Suppose a grant proposed to these sufferers; would it not be said to be improper to attempt to alleviate private distress? But would it not be an act of justice to our own country, before we went abroad with our charity, to know whether we had not objects at home, to whom it might be extended with advantage?

Lord Castlereagh

disclaimed the idea that, in consequence of this grant, we should be called upon to supply the wants of every country that might be reduced to a state of distress by the aggression of France. A principle so broad would lead to consequences, which, in the present convulsed state of Europe, it would be impossible for this country to meet. But the question was, whether the sufferings of the people of Russia were not brought home to our feelings, both by the heroic exer- tions they had made, and by the important effect which those exertions were likely to have on our own interests, in such a manner as to call for every relief and assistance in our power? The efforts of Russia had been as gigantic as her sufferings had been without parallel; and it was not to be expected that equal sacrifices would again be made to call upon the House for their interposition. An hon. member had treated the proposal to afford relief to the Russian people as chimerical, and even liable to the suspicion of hypocrisy. He should have thought this character much more applicable to the measure, if it had been brought forward in the shape (which that hon. gentleman recommended) of a subsidy to the emperor Alexander. Nothing could be more contemptible or insulting, than a grant to such an extent to a power struggling with the difficulties which Russia had to encounter, and on the immense scale on which her military operartions were carried on. But though its effect might not be so immediate or decisive as could be wished, in alleviating individual distress, yet he hoped it would come seasonably in aid of the patriotic contributions now raising by the Russian government and nobles, to enable the peasantry and lower classes to resume their occupations, and re-build their habitations, on the return of the mild season. By this grant we should shew that we understood the nature of the struggle in which we were engaged, and were not insensible to the noble sacrifices which a whole people had made, not only of temporary interests, of local attachments, of ancient prejudices, but almost of existence, to the cause of country and of king. We could not act wrong in subsidizing the best feelings of human nature. In this view no act of government had ever been more beneficial than the relief which we had afforded to Portugal. Should our troops be driven back again to the lines of Torres Vedras, the attention and sympathy we then manifested for the sufferings of the Portuguese, had left traces in the hearts of the people, which would make lord Wellington's defence light and easy.—His lordship concluded by alluding to the flattering prospects of peace which might probably be anticipated from the Russian successes; of a peace founded on national honour, on national security, and on the public law of Europe; a peace, by means of which every man might sit down in safety, and repose under the shadow of the laws and constitution. He regretted the disapprobation of the motion expressed by the hon. member who spoke last, but bore testimony to the manliness and sincerity with which that hon. gentleman, on all occasions, declared his opinions in that House.

Sir F. Burdett

said, he had heard many-parts of the noble lord's speech with pleasure, but there was no part of it which he had heard with so much pleasure, as the word 'peace, a word which he had not for a very long time heard from the other side of the House. If he thought the present grant would really tend to facilitate that most desirable object, a secure and honourable peace, there was no man who would more readily and cordially agree to it than he would. He sincerely hoped that all the sacrifices and exertions which had been made, and of which so much had been said, would not end in a delusive sound, and that we should not be embroiled in fresh wars on fresh successes. But it had been, in his opinion, justly stated, that the proposed grant would not give effectual relief to the Russians; and, knowing the distresses of our own countrymen to be great, and feeling them as he did, he could not assent to taking the money out of the pockets of the poor of this country, to waste it in nominal relief to others. No attempt had been made by parliament to retrench wasteful and superfluous excess in many of the departments of government; no hint had been thrown out, no intention had been expressed, tending that way. While this was the case, he thought it his duty to resist every application to parliament for any extraordinary supplies, in the present exhausted state of the country. It was not possible to take up a paper; not a day passed, without accounts of distraining for the taxes in different places. He did not understand the principle of that generosity, whichsym-pathised only with the distresses of other countries, but bad no feelings for those of our own. Last year the sufferings of the manufacturers in the northern and midland counties had been laid before parliament with a view to some pecuniary relief being afforded. Those sufferings were of a nature to make every feeling heart bleed. But the answer to the application was, that no relief could be be given, consistently with the pressure of the times, and with public economy. We paid dear for the prevalence of this sort of foreign sympathy we had to maintain French loyalists, Dutch loyalists, American loyalists; but when he had come to the House with a proposal of some better provision for the worn-out servants of the public, veteran officers who were pining in poverty and obscurity, or the disabled cripple, whom we daily saw begging about our streets, he had received the same cold answer, that the necessary expences of the government were so great as to admit of no addition.

Mr. Wilberforce

said, that those gentlemen who opposed the grant found it hard to reconcile their conduct to themselves. They could only do it by inventing some other object of humanity which appeared to claim the preference, or by denying that the measure before the House would operate effectually to the relief of the sufferers. He thought, that including the cheapness of provisions and the mode of living in Russia, the sum, moderate as it was, would be of considerable immediate service; but he conceived the principal benefit to be expected from it, was, that in other cases of a similar kind, it would be setting an example, and opening a channel, into which the charitable and liberal feelings of others would naturally flow. An hon. gentleman had spoken lightly of the grant, as not likely to cement the two countries together. But he conceived that nothing had a greater influence in strengthening political alliances than the manifestation of a friendly and generous disposition between the people. He did not see why nations as well as individuals might not be both generous and just. He had attempted to make some calculation of the share of the ex-pence which would fall upon the poor of this country, but he had found it impossible, and had given up the task in despair. He thought that we could only testify our gratitude to Providence for our exemption from the heavier calamities of war, by shewing our sense of the sufferings to which the inhabitants of other countries, united with us in the same cause, were unfortunately exposed.

Lord Cochrane

gave his support to the motion, as the sum to be voted was not greater than every ten days expence of the war in the peninsula.

The motion was then carried without a division.