HC Deb 22 March 1811 vol 19 cc493-6

On the motion for the third reading of this Bill,

Mr. Whitbread

rose and stated, that though the time of night at which this motion was made, the nature of the debate which had preceded it, and the state of the House, were all extremely discouraging circumstances, still he could not be persuaded to suffer the present Bill to pass without stating what were his impressions on the subject; and he also thought himself in candour bound to say, having no wish to take gentlemen on the other side by surprise, that he should take the sense of the House upon it, if the House should be in a state to admit of that being done. The right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer had not done what he ought to have done, and what he understood, that he had promised to do. He had omitted to introduce a clause into the Bill, restraining the commissioners and also all persons who were members of that House, from participating in the benefits to be derived from the Bill. The Commissioners might be restrained from any such participation, by a feeling of duty, but still a clause to that effect could not be the less proper. To his conception too, members of that House should be excluded, even in a constitutional point of view. If not, this was a new way of creating influence for the crown. He did not impute to the right hon. gent. any idea of influence having been used by him to introduce this mea- sure into parliament; but still such a thing was possible; and it was also apparent, that all persons who might, in similar circumstances, come to him, or to any other minister, requesting his influence in carrying through such a measure, must be esteemed dependants on him. This could not be regarded in any other light than as a new species of influence, which must be highly detrimental to the constitution. He came now to the measure itself, of which he must say that not one man liked it. It had no favourer, not even in the person by whom it was introduced. What good, then, was it calculated to do? The right hon. gent. said, the House could not visit those who had been unfortunate, in a vindictive way. God forbid! That the House had it not in its power. But did the right hon. gent. think it would be wise in the House to support at the expence of the rest of the country, those individuals who had embarked in improvident speculations? He was told, and he believed the fact, that there had been few failures of any of our old stable houses: that they were almost entirely speculators who had failed, and who had carried along with them the manufacturers who had entrusted them with their goods. The small manufacturers, however, who had suffered in this way, were to have no relief under this Bill. The Commissioners were not to giant sums under 4,000l. unless on a deposit of goods to twice the amount of the loan. But how were these small manufacturers to do so? Their goods were already gone—they had been defrauded of them. They could probably give other security, which, if accepted of, they right be enabled to go on; but no such security could be taken. Here, therefore, was a fundamental defect in the Bill. His belief was, that the commercial credit of the country could not be extricated out of the difficulties in which it was involved, but by a settlement of our dispute with America, and by a peace in Europe. How could the present, difficulties be removed or alleviated by an issue of paper, at a period when the redundancy of paper in circulation was practically illustrated within these few days, by a depreciation of its value. When we could not for our paper get the same quantity of silver which we had been accustomed to receive for it, did not that afford us a practical illusration that our paper was depreciated. The only end which the present Bill could serve would be, to induce the manufacturers to make new goods, and thus to add to the calamity. On these grounds he must oppose the Bill, and take the sense of the House upon it.

Mr. Lambe

was afraid, that both the reasons which were supposed to have led to the present difficulties in the commercial world, were to be traced to the same cause; and that the violent trading to South America, which was supposed to be the principal reason of the present stagnation, arose from the shutting up of the ancient markets in Europe, in consequence of the steps taken by this country, and by our enemy. If this was the case, the present Bill could produce no effectual relief, but only served to put off the evil day. What chance was there of having the ancient markets of Europe opened? There was surely none. We therefore, by the present measure, only held out to the emperor of France an assurance that his plans had been successful, and thus induced him to persevere in them. The least part of the disadvantage to the country likely to result from the present Bill, would be the loss of the money advanced by the public. We had a far greater misfortune than that to contemplate. By this measure the House prevented the manufacturers and others, who ware the objects of the present Bill, and who now suffered from the glut of the foreign market, and in consequence of being excluded from the markets of Europe, from turning their capitals to other more important sources of internal improvement, from which both the individuals themselves, and the country as a nation, must derive infinitely greater advantages than from any trade or commerce whatever.

Mr. Marryatt

agreed with the hon. gentleman, that it would be better if commissioners and members of parliament were not allowed to claim relief under the Bill; but he could not agree with the last hon. gentleman that all the markets were shut. There were still a great many open to our merchants. The grand benefit which the Bill had in view was to keep the operative labourers at work, and therefore was highly desirable and beneficial.

Mr. Hibbert

was of opinion that the epithets "rash and improvident" were too freely bestowed on several classes of British merchants, whose conduct had not been such as justly to subject them to such an imputation. He thought that there was no class of merchants to whom the proposed relief could extend to whom it ought not to extend, and it appeared to him to be evident, that through the merchants the manufacturers must be relieved. For the Bill he should decidedly vote; but at the same time he concurred in the opinion of the hon. gentleman below him as to the expediency on the part of our government, to heal by peace the wound which commerce and the country had received.

The House then divided:

For the third reading 41
Against it 4
Majority 37