The Chancellor of the Exchequerrose, in pursuance of his notice, to move for the appointment of a Select Committee to inquire into the state of Commercial Credit. Various representations had reached him from manufacturing and mercantile people, of the disadvantage under which trade suffered, and which they attributed to the state of credit and the condition of the markets with which they were formerly in the habit of communicating. At first he did not believe that the evil prevailed to such an extent as had been stated, but so various were the representations that he now thought it his duty to submit the present motion to the 124 House, that they might ascertain its existence, and provide a remedy as soon as possible. He deprecated all discussion upon this occasion as premature, and recommended that they should wait to have, the advantage of the report. It was his intention, that all the surviving members of the committee which was appointed upon a similar subject, in the year 1793, should be upon the present, and that the number of the whole should be 21. He concluded with moving, "That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into the State of Commercial Credit, and report the same, as it shall appear to them, to the House, together with their opinion and observations thereon."
The members proposed were: the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Mr. Manning, sir J. Sinclair, Mr. Brogden, sir J. Shaw, Mr. Staniforth, Mr. Irving, Mr. H. Thornton, Mr. Robert Shaw of Dublin, Mr. Dundas, the Lord Advocate of Scotland, Mr. Rose, sir Thomas Baring, Mr. A. Baring, Mr. Sharp, Mr. Long, Mr. Alderman Combe, Mr. Marryatt, sir J. Newport, Mr. Foster, and Mr. C. Ellis.
§ Mr. Tierneysaid, he hoped that the committee would be permitted to go at large into the subject, in order to trace the cause of the evil.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, the committee for which he moved, was for the purpose of inquiring into the state of Commercial Credit, not of Public Credit, beyond that it was not his idea that it should go. The committee, he was sure, would not think it advisable to protract their report to any great length, but it would naturally inquire into the causes for the purpose of ascertaining the remedy; and if it found that the evil sprung from public causes, would of course recommend a public remedy. Should that view, however, be taken of the subject, there would be more propriety, he thought, in bringing it before the committee than the House.
§ Mr. Curwenhailed the present measure as a step towards the exposure of the bad system upon which the government had acted. He alluded to the new relations with America, and disapproved of the policy of encouraging manufactures to the injury of the agriculture of the country.
§ Mr. Hornerthought the chancellor of the exchequer had taken a more correct view of the subject than his right hon. friend. It was better, in his opinion, to confine the inquiry at present to the nature 125 of the measures to be adopted, than to enter upon the causes which have led to those measures. He wished to express, however, no opinion at present of the remedy necessary for the evil; or even an opinion of the possibility of affording any such remedy. He rose to move for the addition of another name to the list. Nothing, he owned, could be more respectable than the names of which that list was composed; but he could not avoid thinking that it would have been better if it had contained fewer commercial members. He thought that, at any rate, the late Secretary to the Treasury should be on the committee, and should therefore move, that the name of Mr. Huskisson be added.
§ Mr. Huskissonwished to decline the honour of being a member of the committee. He stated the points in which he thought the present distresses resembled, and in which they did not resemble those of 1793. At present there was no interruption to public credit; in 1793 it was otherwise; and at present there was a great spirit of over-trading in the country. He disclaimed having any particular opportunities of information on this subject.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerrose to support the motion of the hon. gent. He agreed with the gent, who last spoke, that the present circumstances differed in some cases from those of 1793, and resembled them in others. He thought, however, that should the distresses of the present day be even traced to overtrading, yet if the result of that over-trading had been such as not only to occasion mischief to those who had over-traded, but to those who have not over-traded, the House could have no objection to afford an alleviation, if possible. He had no hesitation in saying, that whatever opinion might be formed of the policy of the Orders in Council, these, on inquiry, would not be found to be the cause of the present commercial distress.
§ Mr. Tierneysaid, that it was not sufficient to induce the House to vote an issue of exchequer bills, to state that numbers of merchants had over-traded themselves. Upon such a report being presented to the House he should not think himself justified in giving his vote. He did not mean to say that under certain circumstances of distress, he might not be willing enough to give assistance; but those circumstances he thought should differ materially from the present. He owned 126 he did not see how a remedy could be afforded to the present evils. The right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer spoke of the necessity of a speedy report; but he hoped that sufficient time would be taken to make the necessary inquiries, and for this purpose a week, at least, would be necessary. Were he a member of the committee, he would wish to examine a number of merchants on the subject, and enter upon other inquiries, which would all take up a good deal of time. It would be proper for the House to know what was the state of the present distress, what had produced that state, and what was likely to be the duration of that state: and it would be foolish to give issues of Exchequer bills at present, if at the end of a twelvemonth the evil should still continue.
The Chancellor of the Exchequershould certainly think the committee were going beyond their duty, were they to enter upon so large a field of investigation as the right hon. gent, would force upon them. To what extent the House might think fit to go into the ultimate and proximate causes of the subject, was another consideration but it was the Committee's duty to inquire into the nature of the present distress. The House would consider the degree and extent of the distress, and whether it Was advisable to afford a remedy.
Mr. Canningobserved, that from the narrow description of the investigation proposed, he apprehended the qualities for which his hon. friend had been stated to be particularly distinguished, were not necessary, especially if it was intended that the report should be speedily laid on the table. The qualities alluded to would only have been of essential advantage, if the committee were about to inquire not only into the immediate but into the remote causes of the present state of commercial credit. He therefore thought it would be better to leave the names as originally moved.
§ Mr. Hornerexpressed his surprise that the right hon. gent, should have spoken as if he had fallen into some impropriety in naming the hon. gent, near him as a member of this committee, and an impropriety which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had avoided. This was extraordinary, as the Chancellor of the Exchequer had immediately assented the moment the hon. gent, had been named; He had never doubled but the hon. gent. 127 would have been willing to have given his services upon the committee; services which, in his view of the case, would be of great utility. It appeared to hire that this would be an operation of finance I founded on a commercial difficulty; and it was important, even with a view to the proximate causes of that difficulty, that some person, accustomed to the operations of finance, should be on the spot. Although he was sorry that the services of the hon. gent, on this committee should be lost, yet as he was averse to become one of the members, he certainly would not press his motion.
§ Mr. Tierneymoved as an amendment, That after the word 'credit', the words and trade of the united kingdom' be inserted.
Mr. Baringthought upon the whole, that it would be better to defer the consideration of the more extended subject, until the narrower was decided, and the report of the committee brought up.
§ Mr. H. Thorntonpreferred the original words. He did not wish that the great political question should be submitted to the committee.
§ The amendment was negatived without a division.
§ Mr. Tierneythen moved another amendment, that the word 'thereupon' should be left out, for the purpose of introducing the words 'the causes that produced the same.'
The Chancellor of the Exchequerthought the words, as they originally stood, expressed the meaning sufficiently, and of course that the amendment was unnecessary.
§ Mr. Wilberforcesaid, the Committee should not be permitted to go into the political question, as it would only have the effect of rendering the real question referred to them, ambiguous.
§ The amendment was negatived as before.
§ Mr. H. Thorntontook it for granted that the object was to inquire into the stale of trade only so far as this was connected with the means of giving relief. To answer this purpose, the original motion was sufficiently well expressed. The amendment proposed would lead into too large a field.
The first part of the amendment, that the committee should inquire into the state of the trade of the united kingdom, was then put and negatived. The question being upon the latter part, that 128 the committee should report on the cause that produced the same.
§ Mr. Percevalobserved, that the right hon. gent, had surely fallen into some mistake. Was it meant that there should be an inquiry into the causes that produced commercial credit?
§ Mr. Tierney—No into the causes of the present state of commercial credit.
§ Mr. Perceval—Even in that sense it was too large, and would carry the duties of, the committee much beyond what any, one appeared to have in view.
§ Mr. Wilberforceconcurred with the last speaker, that the words of the amendment were too large—and that the inquiry ought to be confined to the state of trade, so far as this was connected with the mean" of relief.
§ The latter part of the amendment was also negatived, and the motion, as originally worded, agreed to without a division.
§ Upon the reading of the names of the members for the committee,
§ Mr. Whitbreadstated, that in his opinion there were too many commercial men proposed, 13 out of the 21 being of that description, and thereby constituting a majority of the whole. The remaining names, too, were chiefly those connected with the right hon. gent, in office. The right hon. gent, seemed to hold out, that he had at first rather turned a deaf ear to the representations on this subject, and whether he was a convert to the opinions contained in these representations, or had brought forward the subject on account of the number of applications, and the respectability of the quarters from whence they came, he had not mentioned. But if the commerce of the country was in an embarrassed state, and it was clear that it was, this committee was improperly constituted. That there ought to be some Commercial men, was certain; but that they must have a strong bias to recommend the granting of relief, even though it might be doubtful to others whether such a measure would be proper, he thought self-evident, and therefore they ought not to constitute a majority. He was surprised that the name of Mr. Huskisson had not been originally proposed, and surprised that there should be any objection on his part when he was last mentioned. He hyped some other names would be proposed. The commercial majority was objectionable in the first place, and almost the whole of the vest would be under a vote for any 129 measure of relief which the Chancellor of the Exchequer might have already suggested.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerstated, that he had taken the principal merchants from both sides of the House—persons best acquainted with the subject, and at the same time not likely to be so much affected as less eminent traders, by the present depressed state of commerce. He had no objection, however, to some more names, though it was desirable that the committee should not be too numerous.
§ Sir J. Newportobjected to the constitution of the committee, on the same grounds as Mr. Whitbread.
§ Mr. A. Baringstated, that every commercial man who had expressed a doubt as to the expediency of giving relief, had been named for the committee.
§ Sir J. Newportdisclaimed any other objection to a majority of commercial men than this, that they would be, from the nature of the case, acting under an undue bias.
§ Mr. G. Johnstoneproposed that Mr. D. Giddy be added to the committee, but nobody seconded the motion.—The committee was therefore appointed as originally constituted, with the usual powers.