§ An Account of the number of French Prisoners of War in England being presented to the House,
Mr. Rosetook occasion to observe, that it would appear from these documents that the total number of French Prisoners remaining in England amounted to 45,933, and that the returns of the sick were 321. The number on parole were 2,710, and the sick 165. This statement he conceived would be a sufficient answer to the imputations of negligence upon the part of this government which had been thrown out by a noble lord.
§ Lord Cochranerose and said: Sir; I do not know whether it is perfectly regular to make any observations on the production of these papers; but reproached as I am at this moment by the pointed ad-dress of the right hon. gent., and goaded as I have been by his repeated assertions, that I am unable to prove facts which I have stated to this House, it is incumbent upon me to justify my conduct, in having given notice of a motion relative to the prison in Dartmoor, but in which I did not persevere, for reasons very different from those assigned by the right hon. gent., namely, "an inability to prove facts." Sir, if facilities are afforded to investigate truth, that right hon. gent. will find, that neither within or out of this House have I ever asserted that which I am unable to establish. The time that has elapsed will sufficiently evidence my reluctance to bring this matter to the knowledge of the public, fearing that a disclosure might add to the misfortunes of our countrymen in France. However, the defence of my character now compels me to say a few words in relation to it, and the right hon. gent. and his colleagues have themselves alone to blame.
Having received many letters, stating the condition of the Prisoners of War at Dart-moor to be truly deplorable, I deter-mined to investigate the subject; and having had occasion to go to Exeter, I proceeded to Launceston, and other depots, whence I obtained the intelligence, and 635 being satisfied that the complaints had some foundation, I went to Dart-moor, not doubting but that every facility would have been afforded to disprove the com-plaints, and invalidate the heavy charges made; but, to my great astonishment, I was refused admittance, even in my capacity as a member of Parliament. [A great laugh.] Yes! I say in my capacity as a member of Parliament! which, what-ever respect or consideration it merits in the opinion of the hon. gentlemen who indulge themselves in laughing, it ought to entitle the members of this House to ad-mission there, or into any prison in the kingdom.
Having contributed to place many individuals into this depot, I applied also for permission to see the interior, as a captain of the navy, but I was refused leave, except to look through a grating into the outer court-yard. This caution, I confess, produced a conviction in my mind that there existed some hidden motive for unusual secrecy. I asked for the authority which prevented my informing my-self of the state of the prisoners, and I was shewn an Order from the Transport-board, which increased my desire the more, as I found the climate of the prison accurately and faithfully described in the complaints which had been made to me, It is exposed on the summit of the highest and most bleak range of mountains in Devonshire, where the winter winds pierce with all the keenness possible, increased by constant fogs and sleet, and rain; it is situated in the midst of a barren moor, on which no vegetable grows, I was told that the prison wall had only been seen nine times from the Agent's house during the whole winter, although it is as near to it as from your chair, Sir, to that door, and in such a state of obscurity was Dart-moor involved, by fog and rain, that when I was there I had a guide each time to conduct me.
Anxious to learn the reason for building a depot in so barren, elevated and extraordinary a situation, I inquired the cause of various persons, and I was uniformly answered, that it was with a view to attract inhabitants to the Moor. A Moor, Sir, on which Englishmen since the creation never lived. A Moor on which Scotchmen refused to live. Saunders invited to take possession of it, some years ago, naturally inquired why English folk did not live there? And judging the answer, that it was high and, to be unsatisfactory, 636 he asked if broom, whins, heath, briers, or thistles grew on the highly recommended spot? And being answered in the negative he said "keep it to yoursef man, it wonna do for me at a'."—I was certain, Sir, that attracting inhabitants to this desert could not be the real motive. So, unable to get satisfactory answers at Dartmoor, I proceeded to Plymouth, where I obtained a plan of the Prison, fully corroborating one complaint, that the health of the prisoners had suffered by exposure to heavy rains, whilst standing in an open space for several hours, receiving provisions issued at a single door; the cooking room being several hundred feet distant from the Prisons, which then contained six thousand prisoners, divided into messes of six; consequently one thousand were soaked through in the morning attending for their breakfast, and one thousand more at dinner. Thus a third were constantly wet, many without a shift of clothes. I was told, however, that they gambled or sold them.
This being the state of things, I felt it a duty to proceed farther, and investigate, as well with a view to relieve those who had conveyed their complaints to me, as for the sake of our prisoners in France, and the honour of our country. At Plymouth I saw a return of sick and of deaths—I concluded that the fever arose from the cause which I have assigned, wet clothes in close prisons. Whether the return was made up daily or weekly, I do not remember—I cannot charge my memory at this distance of time, I think the number of deaths were 49 [A great laugh.] Sir, my want of recollection can-not alter facts, which are or ought to be on record, and perhaps are contained in the very paper now presented by the right hon. gent. if that paper is correct.
Here give me leave to observe, that the transport board, sick and hurt board, and the superintendance of prisoners of war, are all preposterously and absurdly united, by which means material duties are confided to and conducted by clerks; this is one of our new savings. The country, however, would have no reason to regret the expence of a few thousands a year, to responsible persons, in order that those distinct duties might be properly executed. Is it rational that letters written about the hire of transports, should be referred to medical men—or the allowance of medicines depend on the judgments of those whose habits enable them to perform the 637 office of ship brokers? If this is not the case, why unite them? I remember once getting an answer from this board, that although our medicines were expended, we could get no more until the twelve-month expired.
But, Sir, to return to the subject. On my second visit to Dart-moor, being again refused admittance, I began to explore the exterior, in the prosecution of which it occurred to me, that the manure of the prison, in a situation so distant from any town, might be an object to some one. On inquiry what became of it? the answer was, It was carried away by a common sewer. I asked, if it ran streight down the hill from the prison? And being answered in the negative, I thought it might lead to a discovery, if I followed the stercoraceous duct, which I found led diagonally nearly on a water level, meandering along the sides of the hills. Mark, Sir, I do not ascribe any motives, but it is a strange coincidence of facts, that this prison should, by accident, have been placed on the only spot in Devon, whence the stercoraceous matter of the depot could, by the power of gravity alone, descend on a neighbouring and elevated estate belonging to the Secretary of his royal highness the Prince Regent. (Mr. Tyrwhitt). It is a very extraordinary circumstance, and one, Sir, if it had happened in the island of Walcheren, to an estate of the Secretary of Louis Napoleon, we should have been surprized at.
The prison of Dart-moor stands in the most inclement part of all England [a laugh.] Yes; in the most inclement part, I speak not of the feelings of consumptive individuals protected by good houses, and comfortable warm cloathing. But I speak of men ill cloathed, exposed as the French prisoners were, on the top of the highest mountain in Devonshire, involved in perpetual rains and eternal fog. That the prison was not built there on a principle of economy, may be seen, by inspecting the contracts for provisions, coals and necessaries, furnished at Dart-moor and at Plymouth, I think I calculated the difference at more than seven thousand pounds a year, on the provisions alone. It may he very proper, that prisoners should not be collected in great numbers at Plymouth, but I assert, without fear of disinterested contradiction, and without the possibility of the fact being disproved, that Dart-moor depot ought not to have been placed on the top of the highest and most barren 638 range of mountains in Devonshire, where it is involved in constant fog, and deluged with perpetual rain.
If the right hon. gent. thinks proper to go more at large into this subject at a future period, and to add to the papers which he has just placed on the table the Reports of medical men and others, relative to the state of the prison at the period alluded to, and the situation in which it is built, I am prepared to meet him even upon that point, which he has imprudently pitched upon as a feature of my inconsistency; although it will be in the recollection of the House, that the notice I gave was solely, that I should move for papers.
I may add to my other reasons for relinquishing my intention, that I received assurances that the situation of the prisoners would be immediately attended to. I shall abstain from remarking on the manner in which the right hon. gent. has taken me by suprize, and wrested from me these facts in my own defence. Had I brought this matter forward voluntarily, I do assure the House that it was my intention to have cleared the Gallery, to prevent publicity.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerobserved, that by the noble lord's own statement, the circumstances of the prison were altered. There had been a mortality among the prisoners in the spring of 1810, from the arrival of some French from the West Indies, in a very dirty state. Those mea brought fever into the prison, but it was soon got under. The Chancellor of the Exchequer then succinctly answered the other statements, and concluded by expressing his surprise that if the noble lord had known of all those charges, he had never brought them forward before. The prisoners were at this moment in a state of comfort unequalled in any military prison, and in a state of health which was not exceeded by that of the healthiest district of England.
§ Mr. Whitbreadfelt himself obliged to make some observations on what had fallen from the noble lord. He had taken the pains of making many enquiries into the state of the prisoners, and he must say, that all his enquiries were satisfactorily answered. There had been a fever in the prison, from infection; that was got over. As to the assertions, that there was a difficulty of corresponding with the Transport Board, be had happened to have a good deal of correspondence with 639 the Board on the subject of those very French prisoners, and he would say, that he was surprised, not merely at the quickness of their returning an answer, but at the minute information which they gave of every prisoner. He had observed, in one of his visits, that there was a want of clothing among the prisoners, but the reply was nearly satisfactory. Some of those prisoners possibly had reason to complain, that enough clothes had not been furnished to them lately; but of others, it was known, that if they had three rags, they would gamble away two of them. The situation of the prisoners at Dartmoor seemed as comfortable as the situation of a prisoner could be.
Mr. Rosesaid the malignant fever was in January, and that in April, out of 5,000 prisoners, there were but 60 sick.
§ Mr. Crippssaid that to his certain know-ledge the water at Dartmoor was excellent.
§ Mr. Stephenreprobated the injudicious and careless spirit in which many of the observations on the subject had been hazarded by the noble lord.
§ The Papers were then ordered to be printed.