§ This Bill being read a second time, counsel were called in and heard.
Mr. Baringthen moved, that the Bill be committed, and said, that he would not trouble the House with any observations in the present stage, as he was sure that a measure which met the approbation of so large a body of merchants would at least be permitted to go into a committee.
§ Mr. Grenfellsaid, that after the frequent discussions upon this subject, and after what had fallen from the counsel, he should not enter much into it at present; but he only rose to observe, that the most proper mode would be to refer the subject to his Majesty's privy council, for the discussion of it in the House was an irregular interference with the prerogative of the crown. He should therefore oppose the motion for going into a committee.
§ Sir T. Turtondenied that the Bill was a mere speculation. The real question before the House was, whether the increase of trade since the institution of the corporations or companies said to be injured by the Bill, might not require a different system? The measure should have his support, as he believed its operation would be to throw open insurance at the lowest rate.
Mr. Marryattsaid that this Bill must be considered with regard to its ultimate object, which was, the establishment of a great combination, to do away every other mode of insurance. At present, there was a monopoly dc jure, But not de facto; if this measure succeeded, there would be a monopoly de facto, though not de jure. Such a company might command the rate of premium. Their interest would be to delay payment as long as possible, and their correspondents would encounter intolerable hardships. Instead of 1,500 individuals, as at present, there might be 20 companies whose secretaries might understand each other, and settle the premium at their pleasure. The companies, it had been proved, were a dearer resort, and their solidity was not such as afforded any compensation. All this was the effect of speculation taking the place of sober industry. He himself had a share in one of the fire offices (all of which would become marine insurers, if this Bill passed) for which he paid 500l. He had been offered 2,000l. for it, subject to the passing of this Bill. Companies, in short, would start up like the lottery insurance companies in every street, and would be. here to-day and gone to-morrow. Losses to the amount of six or seven millions had been lately paid, on account of the critical state of trade. What would have become of their million capital, if but nearly this sum had come upon it? He should therefore oppose the motion.
The Chancellor of the Exchequercontroverted the opinion of Sir T. Turton on the, subject of the charters, and contended that the road to redress was open to these petitioners in the mode pointed out by the act, and consequently that their application to parliament was improper. On petitioning the King, the matter would go through the Privy Council to the Attorney General, who would hear it as a cause; and, on his report, the decision of the executive would be given. If the charters of the existing companies were found to be objectionable, by this mode they would be rescinded, and all the petitioners required by the present Bill would be accomplished. Yet, though this road had been pointed out to them last session, they had preferred coming again to parliament, where their claims, from the nature of a popular assembly, were not likely to be so accurately discussed. He condemned the original motives of the petitioners, and 119 much as he was averse to new charters, he would rather agree to one of them, than to an anomalous copartnery like the present. He then pointed out many inconveniences that would arise were the present Bill to be passed, and so large a body established, which could only be sued in the name of their secretary, whose person would be all the insurers would have for their risks. On all these grounds he was hostile to this application.
§ Mr. Adamthought that the right hon. gent. had mistaken the state of the question, and that no part of his observations applied to it. A grievance had been proved to exist, and the object was to apply a remedy. The Bill did not propose to dissolve any charter, but merely to say, that the system of solitary insurances should no longer be the law. The grievance complained of was, the insecurity of insurances; and the measure submitted, was the doing away of that clause in the acts which prevented others from joining in companies. Therefore he thought that the argument of the right hon. gent. did not apply.
The Attorney Generalopposed the Bill, the object of which, he said, was, if not to destroy the charter, to take away one of the greatest advantages arising from the incorporation of those companies.
Sir John Anslrutltercontended that his Majesty's power applied only to the total repeal of the charter; but not to any particular modification, such as was now proposed. He was of opinion that the Bill should go into a committee.
After some further observations from the Solicitor General and Mr. Stephen, who spoke against the Bill, and from Mr. Morris and Mr. Baring, in favour of going in a committee, the House divided, when the numbers were,
| For going into a Committee | 25 |
| Noes | 26 |
| Majority against the Bill | —1 |