PAY OF OFFICERS OF THE NAVY ON FOREIGN STATIONS.

HC Deb 09 April 1811 vol 19 cc749-52

Captain Bennett

rose, pursuant to notice, to submit a motion relative to the pay of Officers of the Navy on foreign stations. In consequence' of the fluctuation of the foreign exchanges, or rather the depression of them against this country, the officers of the navy on the Mediterranean station, and at Lisbon, actually suffered a loss of about 30 per cent. on all pay remitted to them. All that he desired, was, that the navy should in this respect be put on a footing with the army, and that they should receive their pay at par. This question, which was merely brought for the comforts of the navy, and was quite abstracted from all party considerations, would, he hoped, receive the sanction of the House. He understood that it was to be opposed by-some of his Majesty's ministers, but he could not conceive upon what ground, as the matter appeared to him so strictly just and reasonable. He could see no reason why the officers of the navy should not receive the same advantages in this respect as the officers of the army. He concluded by moving that this House will resolve itself into a Committee of the whole House to consider of the Act of the 35 Geo. 3, c. 94, respecting the wages and pay of certain officers of his Majesty's Navy, so far as relates to Bills drawn by Officers serving on Foreign Stations under the provisions thereof.

Mr. Yorke

was convinced that no party considerations were mixed with the present question. Every man must feel for the honour and comforts of the navy, and in this feeling he partook as much as the gallant officer, or any other man. The gallant officer must have known, that what he had proposed, it was not in the power of the Admiralty to do, and that it could only be done by that House. Before he adverted to the situation of officers employed in the Mediterranean, he should first generally state, that before the year 1795, the officers, as well as the ship's company, only received their pay when the accounts were closed at the end of the year, but by that Act they were allowed to draw on the Navy Board quarterly for the amount of their pay. Until this regulation, the officers in the Mediterranean, as well as on other stations, were indeed exposed to considerable hardships, both upon this account and on account of the unfavourable state of the exchanges. In 1800 and 1801 the price of the dollar rose in the Mediterranean and Levant, and the exchange had been sometimes favourable, although he must allow, that for many years back the dollars had been above the par, which was 4s. 6d. and even sometimes rose as high as 5s. 8d. in that part of Europe. If the motion of the hon. officer was agreed to, the country would suffer an annual loss of 25,000l. for remittances to officers on the Mediterranean station alone, and similar claims would certainly be put in by officers on other stations. The common men might also think that they had a right to similar allowances. He hoped that the exchange would not remain permanently against this country, but that in time it would so far recover that the officers should have nothing to complain of. Besides the loss which he had mentioned, he believed that the officers would draw more bills, if those bills were to be paid at par; and he thought that even the evil which was now complained of might produce in them habits of economy and frugality, when they found that they lost considerably by drawing for money from England. If the motion was agreed to, it would have a tendency to turn many of our officers into money-brokers. He found himself compelled by his sense of duty to oppose the motion.

Mr. Whitbread

hoped that this question might be discussed without any considerations of party. He did not wish to oppose himself to the administration of the right hon. gent., whose conduct in his department he had always heard spoken of with the greatest approbation. He thought it was due to the right hon. gent, to say so much in praise of his general administration of the Admiralty, yet in the present instance he must entirely disagree with him. If the present motion had come from that right hon. gentleman, he was sure that it would have been agreed to by the House without any opposition. He could see no reason why the officers of the navy should not have the same allowances as the officers of the army. The right hon. gent, seemed to think that their superior accommodation on board ship, where their lodging and food was provided for them, was a sufficient reason for a difference. He, however, thought otherwise, for doubtless all those things were taken into consideration when the pay of the two services were fixed. As to the chance of the exchanges rising in time, that was nothing to the officers now serving. It was a poor comfort to the officers who were losing 30 per cent. out of their pay by serving their country in the Mediterranean, to tell them that some time or another officers might possibly gain by the exchanges becoming favourable. When the right hon. gent, said, that probably the exchange would again rise to be in favour of this country, he must say, that he could see no such probability Sup-pose that an expence would be incur-red by this means of 30 or 40,000l. a year, he was convinced that it could well be saved on some other part of the navy estimates. But, if it could not be saved, still he was sure that the country would never grudge such a sum for the comforts of a set of men, who were in a peculiar degree, the beloved of the nation. He thought the right hon. gentleman's way of teaching them frugality and economy was rather a curious one. To be sure, if from the income of a man of a hundred a year, you take away thirty, that man is obliged to be economical and frugal in spite of himself. But he did not know what right they had to force people to be economic and frugal in that manner, or why the naval officers should be fined in the amount of 30 per cent. on their pay merely because they were sent to serve their country in the Mediterranean. The right hon. gent, had seemed afraid that all the officers would turn money-brokers, if their bills were payable at par. [Mr. Croker said, across the table, "not all, but many of them."] Oh! then it seemed that the Secretary to the Admiralty did allow that there might be some splendid exceptions of officers who would not be money-brokers! He differred from him, however, in this respect, and thought that very few of our naval officers thought of making money by calculating rates of exchange. Their principal calculation of gain was from taking prizes. He hoped the House would do that justice to the navy which the ministers did not appear inclined to do in the present instance; and he should wish that the hon. officer would take the sense of the House, in order that it might appear who voted against their claim and who supported it.

Mr. Croker

said, the hon. gent, had not refuted any one of the arguments of the right hon. gent, who preceded him; and on one or two occasions, had shewn that he completely misunderstood him. On one of these occasions, after a long tirade, he had felt the necesity of confessing his ignorance of what, perhaps, every body in the House but himself completely understood. He rose at present to take notice of an unfair construction that had been attempted to be put upon his meaning, when the hon. gent, first charged his right hon. friend with having said, that all the officers of the navy would become money brokers; and then attempted to convert his (Mr. Groker's) dissent into an expression that there might be some. The expressions make use of by his right hon. friend; were very different from those assigned to him by the hon. gent.; and he had no right, therefore, to put what he must call a calumnious construction on his sentiments.

Mr. Rose

said that he felt as much for the honour and comforts of the navy as any man, and had done all that lay in the power of his humble efforts to promote them. He therefore trusted that he should not be considered an enemy to the navy, although he must oppose the present motion. On some stations the exchange was in favour of the officer, and on the Jamaica station in particular, it had been pretty permanently 12 per cent. in their favour. The calculation of the allowances to be made to the naval officers would be extremely difficult, as there was no pay master as in the army.

Mr. Horner

supported the motion, al-though he was generally in favour of increases of pay and allowance originating with ministers, and not in that House. He certainly did not think that it would be right to be calculating minute variations of exchange, but that when a very strong case was made out for relief, as he conceived this to be, he thought the officers should not be permitted to suffer so very considerably.

Mr. Huskisson

conceived, that great difficulty would arise, if we were to think of adjusting the pay of officers to the incessant variations of foreign exchange. In some cases it would be equivalent to an advance of 30 per cent. on their pay, to the disadvantage of the country; in some, of course, a diminution. They could not be paid in bullion, without a serious loss-in its purchase. The measure proposed would have the effect of introducing a certain kind of money-brokerage into the service; If the measure proposed had any foundation with respect to the officers in the Mediterranean, there was no reason why it should not reach to all officers, naval and military, abroad. The question was connected with that of exchanges, and was extremely extensive. He concluded by recommending the motion to be withdrawn.

Captain Bennett

said, that the navy had been now four years suffering from this grievance; how long, then, he asked, were they still to suffer from the commercial system of the gentlemen on the other side of the House? He had frequently heard of the cold calculations of the cabinet The memorials of the navy officers on this subject had been passed over in silence How long, he asked, were they to suffer under this cold-blooded system? Were he to be alone on this question, he should still feel it to be his duty to divide the House. He saw clearly, however, that the administration would be successful. He mentioned the different diminutions which the income of the officers of the navy had suffered from income tax, &c.; and then asked with what propriety the right hon. gent, could call them money-brokers? He never lamented, more than at that moment, the want of the powers of eloquence, that he might express his indignant feelings at that insinuation. Nothing but imperious necessity could have induced him, inexperienced as he was, to come forward with the motion: but having once made it, he would take the sense of the House upon it.

Mr. Yorke

said, he was not aware of more than two memorials having been presented from officers on foreign service.

Mr. H. Thornton

thought the question premature, as there was another question depending by which this would be materially affected. He therefore thought that the other should be decided before the present was entered upon.

Sir C. M. Burrell

said, the officers of the navy had been ill used by the House, in the deduction which had been made from their shares of prize money, merely for the sake of popularity.

Admiral Harvey

stated his determination to vote for a Committee.

Mr. Whitbread

declared his intention of moving the previous question, that the gentlemen opposite, who seemed to think it premature, might have an opportunity of supporting it hereafter. He was proceeding in his observations, when

The Speaker

suggested that the hon. member had spoken already upon the subject.

Mr. W. Adam

said, that understanding the gentlemen opposite in the same way that his hon. friend had, he should afford them the opportunity, by moving the previous question.

Mr. Whitbread

said, he should vote for the previous question, if he understood the hon. gentlemen correctly, and might hope to have their support to the motion on a Future occasion; and this he understood to be the feeling of his learned friend.

Mr. Huskisson

said, he declined giving any pledge as to his vote, upon any future occasion; and repeated that he thought the measure premature.

Mr. Horner

said, he had forborne from alluding to the other questions as he thought that if our officers on foreign service experienced any loss, let it proceed from what source it would, they ought to be indemnified.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer

observed that the manner in which the previous question was put, was not peculiarly gracious; nor did he ever recollect a question so completely converted into a party question, after the expression of so strong a determination to the contrary. The gallant captain had so far forgotten his original determination, that he did not hesitate to complain of the cold blooded feeling and calculation of the Treasury, though nothing could be more unjustly imputed to them in anything relating to the interests of the navy. As to the hon. gent, who sat next the gallant officer (Mr. Whitbread) after having first transferred his motion to his learned friend (Mr. Adam), he determined that incase of a certain answer to his question he would vote against his own motion; and afterwards went so far as to promise not only for himself but for his learned friend. As the previous question appeared to him the handsomest way of meeting the subject, he would engage that if the hon. gent, would vote against his own motion he would vote for it.

After some further conversation between sir John Newport, Mr. Adam, the Speaker, and captain Bennet, the previous question was carried.