§ The order of the day was read, for taking into consideration the Speech of the lords commissioners, on the opening of the present session.
§ Mr. Creeveyrose and observed, that as a passage in that Speech contained high encomiums upon the flourishing state of the foreign commerce of this country; before he could give his assent to the motion just proposed, he must request leave to ask some questions of his Majesty's ministers, respecting that system to which they attributed this flourishing success; but from which he apprehended consequences the very reverse.
§ The Speakerrose to remind the hon. gent. that if he had any objections to offer against the Supply, this was not the stage of proceeding in which it was usual to urge them; that would more regularly be done in a committee of the whole House. It was not in the usage of the House to discuss the motion now offered in the present stage of the business; the uniform practice had been to let this question pass, as of course, without discussion. Having reminded the hon. gent, of what was the usual mode of proceeding generally in practice, it must be for the discretion of the House to consider whether they would indulge the hon. gentleman in any latitude of discussion on the present occasion.
§ Mr. Creeveysaid, he saw upon the votes of the House, that the consideration of the Lord Commissioners' Speech was an order of the day; and he always understood it to be the undoubted right of every member to discuss in any stage, every question proposed in that House for adoption. He did not at present intend to go at any length into the general subject of the Supply; but before the House was called 155 on to vote that Supply implicitly, and in a general way, he felt that some information was necessary to the House, as well upon some topics in the Speech, as upon others highly important, which he, as well as many other gentlemen, were surprised to find totally omitted. Notwithstanding the high prosperity in the state of our foreign commerce boasted by his Majesty's ministers, it was, he believed, a fact well known to every commercial man, that for all the articles of foreign produce, of late imported into this country for home consumption, we were obliged to make all our returns in actual specie, and not in produce or manufacture. Could any thing then, be clearer, than that such a traffic, if longer continued, must speedily drain all the specie out of this country? Such an effect had already been felt to an alarming extent; and must not the necessary consequence of the exportation of specie, be an inordinate rise in the value of money, and a great depreciation of paper currency? Was it not already well known, that a traffic had been for some time carried on, of buying up specie, for the purposes of exportation, at an actual premium of 30 per cent, above its current value: and could any thing be more seriously injurious to the interests of the country than consequences such as these, resulting from this system of licences, under the Orders in Council, to which so much of our national prosperity was attributed? He wished, therefore, to know from his Majesty's ministers, whether it was their intention to persist in this system of commercial licences, for the importation of foreign produce, upon terms so ruinous to the national interest.—The other subject to which he had alluded, and upon which the Speech was most unaccountably silent, notwithstanding the intelligence of some recent transactions so highly alarming, was the alarming state of the affairs of India. For the last four years, scarce was there a word of communication given to that House relative to so important a branch of British territory, producing a revenue of no less than fifteen millions a year, except, indeed, when an application was made By the Company to that House for a loan of 1,500,000l. He understood that the India Company intended to apply in this session—for another loan of two millions under the sanction of his Majesty's ministers; and by them he now desired to be informed whether this was the fact. He also understood that the Company's Char- 156 ter was to be renewed in the coming spring. This was another point upon which it was highly necessary for the House and the country to be early and correctly informed; for surely it was a matter of the most serious concern to. propose such measures without giving parliament full information upon the embarrassed state of the company's affairs, and ample time to deliberate respecting the policy of granting them a new loan and a new charter, after all that had happened since they, had obtained the last. Upon these points he presumed ministers would have no objection to give the House some explicit information.
Mr. Rosesaid he should think it would better have become the hon. gent. to have sought more accurate information on the subject of our export and import trade, before he ventured to make a public assertion, that the whole of our import trade was of late carried on under the system of licenses from the government, for an exportation of mere bullion, without any home produce or manufacture. The fact was, that for a very long time past our export trade had been carried on in manufactures, with a perpetual balance of millions in favour of this country, and to a degree of prosperity superior not only to any former period of war, but to the most favoured times of peace in the history of the British empire. It was possible that some parts of our import trade, from particular quarters, might be carried on by individuals, merely by an export of money. This, however, had no sanction from the government of the country, who did every thing in their power to prevent it. It was not impossible that some instances might have occurred, such as the hon. gent. had mentioned, of bullion being bought up at an advanced rate, to be sent out of the country. It was, however, scarcely possible, in the immense business of issuing licenses, that some abuses might not have been practised by some individuals. If, however, the hon. gent. knew of any such, and would have the goodness to point out any manner in which it was possible they could be detected or prevented, he might rely upon it that his advice should be thankfully received, and vigilantly adopted. But he would find it a difficult thing to persuade that House, or the merchants of this country to adopt such a policy as the suppression of a system under which the commerce of this country had prospered beyond all former example.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersupported the argument of Mr. Rose, and repeated his assertion of Tuesday night—that the amount of commercial exports, in actual manufactures and produce from this country, within the last year, exclusively of bullion, exceeded by a balance of from seven to eight millions any year of our history in the most flourishing times of peace; and by ten millions, any former year of war. With respect to the other question put by the hon. gent. he conceived it not to be the time for discussing that subject. If any such measure was in the contemplation of the India Company, as the application for a loan, or for a renewal of their charter, it must originate in the Court of Directors, and not in that House. His Majesty's ministers had no power to oblige the India Company to a disclosure of their intentions upon those heads. If they contemplated such a proceeding, they must proceed by petitioning the parliament; and it would be time enough to discuss those subjects, when they came before it in a proper shape.
§ Mr. Tierneywas not disposed to give his Majesty's ministers the credit they seemed so anxious to assume for their Orders in Council and commercial licences, as the true source of all the commercial prosperity they boasted in the last year. He attributed this apparent prosperity to quite other causes; namely, to the long exclusion of our trade from some ports of the continent, which when occasionally opened for us, either by the wants of hostile nations, the enterprising spirit of our own merchants, or by the intervention of neutrals, created an extraordinary demand for British commodities for a time; and hence the apparent but fluctuating superiority of the period in question. But how much greater would these exports have been, had the Orders in Council never been issued, to debar us of the agency of neutrals, and had the trade of the country never been shackled by commercial licences. There were, besides, still stronger objections to this licensing system in another point of view, because it laid the commerce of the country at the feet of the minister; and enabled the government to exercise a partial influence for the advantage of those whom they considered their friends, and to the injury of those whom they might view in a different light. He would not positively charge them with such an exercise of their power; but he believed it was pretty well understood in 158 the world, that when a man had any thing valuable to give, he was in a fair way of expecting something equivalent in return. Ministers sometimes required support, and merchants were sometimes members of parliament, or possessed political influence in some quarter; and if by any chance a merchant was favoured with a licence, perhaps exclusively, to trade to any particular country for the export or import of any given commodity, no doubt he would feel himself much obliged; he would consider the minister who gave it his friend, and would think nothing of losing a few nights rest, or sitting up now and then a few hours extraordinary, to attend a debate or division in that House. It sometimes happened, that in one week licences were given to trade to certain parts, and in the next they were stopped. In such cases, the licences themselves became, to those who had the good fortune to obtain them, lucrative commodities for traffic. He had heard of an instance where a single licence was sold for 1,000l.; and if these instances were frequent, every man must see what enormous degree of influence it would give to ministers.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerexplained, by saying he never had spoken of the Orders in Council, or the system of licences, as eligible measures; on the contrary, he thought them abstractedly ineligible; but they were forced upon the government by the existing circumstances.
Mr. Roseassured the right hon. gent. (Mr. Tierney) that in issuing those licences the most perfect impartiality was observed, and no man's political principles or conduct ever thought of on such occasions.
Mr. Ponsonbyattributed the comparative prosperity of our commerce of late, not to the Orders in Council, nor to the licensing system, but to the temporary suspension of the American embargo and non-intercourse, under an idea that all differences were adjusted with Mr. Erskine; and to the occurrence of the Austrian war, which attracted all the French troops from the ports of Holland and Germany.
§ Mr. Stephensaid it had been remarked, that memory stood in an inverse ratio to wit. The wit of the right hon. gent. opposite (Mr. Tierney) they had frequent occasion to remark; but this night he had shewn, that he possessed the worst memory in the world. He must surely be seen to have done so, when he had stated that the Orders in Council had reduced; 159 the trade of the country to the greatest state of distress, whereas, it must be in the recollection of the House, that they were issued in November, and that the state of stagnation had been proved to have existed in August and September. It was remarkable, however, that the two right hon. gentlemen had assigned very different reasons for the present great increase of trade. One assigned it to the effect of revulsion; the other to the Austrian war and the Walcheren Expedition. It had been alleged or insinuated that licences were given only to the friends of administration and yet it was admitted that the trade of the country, was carried on almost exclusively under the protection of licences, was great and extensive beyond all former precedent; he could not therefore but congratulate the gentlemen on the bench below him on the evidence which this afforded, that the whole commercial body of the people were friends to the present ministers.
Mr. Ponsonbyassured the hon. and learned gent. that he never meant to ascribe the success of oar trade to the Walcheren Expedition.
§ Mr. Whitbreadwas one of those who believed that the worst consequences had resulted from the Orders in Council—the trade was kept alive by relaxations and departures from them. As to the partiality which the system of licenses admitted, he had no doubt upon it; but he was forced to give credit to the assertions of ministers, that no partiality was observed in the granting of them—so far above the ordinary weaknesses of human nature were they. Perhaps, however, he could state instances of the conduct of past times, which did not proceed upon the same liberal principle. He remembered that, in the case of the restraint upon the importation of bark, the ministers granted a license to one merchant, who was a member of the House of Commons, (at least so report said). He did not state confidently that it was so; but if it was, what could be said to ministers who had so conducted themselves?
§ Mr. Wilberforcefelt it due in justice to his Majesty's ministers, to declare, that in proposing the bill to prevent the exportation of bark, their object was not to prevent the enemy from getting bark, but to oblige them, if they were to get bark from this country at all, to get it with a certain proportion of other articles. He was 160 ready to grant, that the mode of carrying on our trade by licenses was very objectionable, and liable to great suspicion; and it was one of the unhappy features of the times that it was necessary to resort to such a practice. It was not to be supposed, if an increase of seven millions had taken place in the exports of the country, that any improper selection had been made of the persons to whom licences had been granted. It must be obvious that they had been granted indiscriminately to the whole of the commercial body, and not restricted to the friends of the government.
§ Mr. Simeonwas of opinion that the Orders in Council were like every other measure of policy—intended to be strict only when they could injure the national enemy, and relaxed when they might benefit ourselves. It was admitted that trade had flourished. It was absurd to conceive that the system which benefited the whole should be radically injurious to the parts. If the body of British merchants were satisfied and grateful, it was idle to say that the individuals of that body were materially injured by the continuance of the system.
§ Mr. A. Baringsaid, the Orders in Council could never have originated with any man conversant in mercantile affairs. The trade was completely shackled; there was hardly a port to which they could sail without a license. He believed there was no partiality shewn, but still it was sufficient to know that the influence did exist. At the board of trade, there was not one, except the vice president (Mr. Rose), who knew any thing of the matter; the rest were lords, lawyers, and naturalists. To say that these Orders in Council were the foundation of our commercial prosperity, was absurd. In fact, they did not exist. The merchants of this country have not been permitted to trade to any country to which neutrals were not also admitted. It was impossible, therefore, that the commerce of this country could have been benefited by the exclusion of neutrals. When the state of the mercantile interests of this country, however, came fairly before the House; when the state of bullion and of exchange were taken into view, it would be seen we had not much on which to congratulate ourselves. It would be seen that we did not enjoy that real health essential to the well-being of commerce.—It was then agreed, that the House should on Monday resolve into Committee of Supply.