HC Deb 12 February 1810 vol 15 cc378-90
Mr. Fuller

rose to make his promised motion on this subject. He said, that in order to make the House acquainted with the nature of those sinecures which he wished to be abolished, it was impossible to do better than to read a passage from the writings of one of the most illustrious men that ever England produced—he meant lord Hale, in his treatise on the amendment of the laws.—That great judge says:—"There are at this day in the Exchequer many great officers, that receive the profit and fees of their office, and either do not at all attend it, or know not what belongs to it, but only, perchance, once a term sit with some formality in their gowns, but never put their hands to any business of their offices, nor indeed know not how. For instance, the King's remembrancer, the receiver and remembrancer of the first fruits, the usher of the Exchequer, the chief marshal of the Exchequer, the chamberlains of the Exchequer, the chief clerk of the Pipe, the controller of the Pipe, and some of the auditors that I could name. These, and some other nominal officers, are great men, enjoy their pleasures, understand not, or attend not to their offices, but dispatch all by deputies; and by this means an unnecessary charge is drawn upon the King and his people; for the chief officer hath the profit, and the deputy he hath some, or else he could not live. If these officers are not necessary, why are they continued? If they are, why should they not be executed at the charge only which accrues from the deputy, and the benefit of the nominal officer, who doth nothing, be retrenched as a needless charge?" And again, "It is the dearest gratification of a courtier or servant that can be imagined, and of the greatest detriment to the King, when an office concerning the revenue is made the reward of the man's service, that knows not how to use it. It were more profit to the King to bestow a pension to the value of the office to such a person; and when he hath done, to bestow the office freely upon an honest man, that knows how to use it. It is true, I know many offices are tilled already in this kind, and reversions upon reversions granted; and if an act to remedy it for the future only were to make a provision to begin the next age, it were worth a present provision and on inspection to be made at present, and resumption by act of Parliament to remedy it, with allotment of some moderate pensions to those that would be removed upon this account; and I believe the King nor people could be no losers by it."—It was hardly possible for him to add much to these very pregnant and pointed words of the great lord Hale, it was obvious from the passages he had read, that that great man had not only the idea of abolishing the places alluded to, but of doing so immediately. That however, was not his intention; but if it were, nothing called for an immediate abolition more strongly than the recollection that the emoluments of most of these places, which are said to be given to persons as a remuneration from the public, are by no means so disposed of, and are generally derived from the individual suitors in the courts of law, and by that means make the remedy at law still more expensive and enormous to the subject. Many of these sinecure offices are held here, while they in reality exist in the West Indies or elsewhere, so that the planter who had not been able of late years to make two per cent. of his capital, is obliged to pay additional fees in a court of justice. The planter was called upon to pay fees out of his gainings or rather his losings, to these sinecure holders at home. It would not be imagined he hoped by any one that this was meant by him as an attack upon the power and influence of the crown, No, he was glad to see the influence of the crown increasing in proportion as the national wealth of the country increased, when of course its morals got worse; but this was sufficiently done by the immense collection of our revenue. His attack was upon those avaricious members of the aristocracy who think it their duty to lay hold of these sinecure places, in order to save them the expence of providing for their younger children, by paying them large sums out of the pockets and the sufferings of individuals, a thing neither done nor thought of, he believed, by any other class of his Majesty's subjects whatever. The sum total of these places, if he were not wrong in his calculation, amounted to 355,612l. 2s. 7d. so that if 55,000l. speaking in round numbers, were to be allotted to the payment of those places which there is a necessity of preserving, the public would, after the lives of the present possessors, be a gainer of 300,000l. He thought this measure would, instead of lessening the influence of the crown, give it still more strength, as it would enable it to reward those who really deserved rewards, instead of paying those who are idle. It was to the manly virtues of our gracious Sovereign, to the courage and skill of lord Nelson, and to the divine mind of Mr. Pitt, that, in his opinion, we owed our present exalted character as a nation; and he should be sorry to see his benevolent Sovereign, perhaps, compelled in his old age, to do what sir Robert Walpole was said in his last moments to have desired his physician to do for him; that is, to turn his head to the wall, that he might no longer look at the villanies, or the base political ingratitude of those he had formerly served, and that he might hide from his view the iniquity that prevailed. The honourable member concluded with moving, "That leave be given to bring in a bill to abolish all sinecure places, and to reduce the exorbitant emoluments arising out of others, to a standard equal to the services performed, after the lives of the present possessors."—On the question being put,

Mr. H. Thornton

said he would not oppose the motion, but he thought it would have been better if the hon. gent. had deferred it till the report of the committee of Finance should enable the House to come to some decision upon the question. There were various considerations connected with the case, which should be attended to, before any final determination could be had upon the subject. It would not only be necessary to consider what sinecures should be abolished, but also what places executed by deputy should be regulated, as well as what increase of salary should be given to the deputies upon whom the duties of the office would fall. Upon all these grounds, he was of an opinion that it would be better for the hon. gent. to put off his motion to some future day.

The Hon. Mr. Ward,

as this was a question which had been frequently under the consideration of the House, did not think a bare vote sufficient for him, and therefore felt it necessary to state the ground upon which he was induced to support the motion of the hon. gent. But at the same time that he supported this motion, he could not subscribe to the doctrine, as, a plain self-evident truth, that all sinecure offices ought to be abolished. If the measure had been presented to him on any such general grounds, in spite of all the unpopularity which might attach to his conduct, he should feel it his duty to oppose it; but in the present case, the ground upon which he supported the hon. gent.'s motion, arose out of the exception which had been made by that hon. gent., namely, the enormous increase of the influence of the crown. It was now nearly 30 years since the celebrated Resolutions, proposed by Mr. Dunning, had been agreed to by that House, viz. "That the influence of the crown had increased, was increasing, and ought to be diminished." He begged gentlemen would bear in mind, that since that period the public establishments had been trebled; the amount of taxes augmented in the highest degree; that the influence of the crown had risen as the country had declined, that it grew with its decay, and strengthened with its weakness; that there was not a family in the whole nation that was not suffering under the consequences of the calamities which had resulted from the system that had been pursued; nay, he should add, that there was not an individual in the" country, who was not alive to the mischiefs necessarily arising from having the administration of the government committed to such incapable men, who pursued a course of conduct equally inconsistent with common principles and common sense.—No man could be more attached than he was to the monarchical part of the constitution, nor more decidedly adverse to revolutionary doctrines; and in wishing to diminish the number of sinecure places, his object was to strengthen the crown, by relieving the burthens of the people. Some check must be put to this kind of influence, not only for the sake of the people, but for the sake of the crown itself. It was because he wished to see the safety of the crown ensured that he wished to see it made somewhat less lofty. It was his wish to see it resting upon the broadest basis. He had but one word more to add on the subject, and that was, that infinitely more advantage than could be expected from the abolition of sinecure places, would be derived from the reform of the great branches of the administration; such reform as had been pointed out by the finance committee. Another source of great public advantage would be found in a total change of the mode of conducting the war. Unless ministers understood how to effect that change, it was in vain to teach them any other lesson. We had wasted as much money, during last year, in the late disastrous expeditions, as would purchase the fee simple of ail the sinecure offices that exist. What was the use of their labour if it were only to enable the administration of the country to carry on such expeditions as those to Walcheren and Spain? Expeditions which brought destruction upon British soldiers, and proved a disgrace to the British name. There was no article of expence so great as an obstinate and weak, but projecting ministry. Such being his sentiments, he should conclude with saying, that the hon. gent. who had brought forward this motion, would contribute much more to economy by giving one single vote against the authors of such accumulated calamities, than by making motions of this kind, which would be rejected even by the very persons, whom, on other occasions, he contributed to save.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer

observed, that the feeling which seemed to be uppermost in the mind of the hon. gent. was, that whatever might be the subject under consideration, a charge was, at all events, to be brought against government. Whether the question was one for reform, economy, or upon any subject of general policy, the hon. gentlemen opposite uniformly took occasion to bring complaints against the conduct of the government; and to urge, that if talents, ability, and integrity were necessary for the conduct of affairs, they were only to be found on their side of the House. The hon. gentle- men opposite well knew, that they and their party possessed a much larger proportion of the offices to which the motion applied, than the gentlemen on his side; and he would ask them, whether it was fair, just, or honest in them, to make the possession of such places the ground of charge against his Majesty's present servants? For himself, he should oppose the motion, but upon a different ground from that stated by the hon. gent., who had taken such a view of it only as would lead to a change of government, in which he should justly be destined to bear so conspicuous a part. The Committee of Finance had reported upon the subject of sinecures, that if they were to be abolished, an equivalent should be provided in some other way. And as to the observation of the hon. gent. respecting the great increase of the influence of the crown, he was ready to deny the fact. Since the period when that House had agreed to the proposition of Mr. Dunning, all Mr. Burke's measures of reform had taken place. Besides, in the proportion in which the influence of the crown had increased, in consequence of the augmented revenue and expenditure of the country, the means and wealth of its population had kept constantly progressive, and formed a balance for any accession to the influence of the crown. He looked upon the motion before the House to be premature; but was of opinion, that whether the Expeditions alluded to by the hon. member had been successful or unsuccessful, or whatever might have been the expences attending them, such topics where wholly unconnected with the question before the House.

The Hon. Mr. Lamb

charged the right hon. gent. with having misrepresented what had fallen from his hon. friend. His hon. friend had not stated that if the House were to look for a constellation of talents, or an aggregate of integrity, they should only look to the side of the House on which he sat, or to the hon. gentlemen with whom he acted. His hon. friend had only said, that if they were inclined to get rid of the greatest imbecility of counsels, of the wildest plans, and feeblest execution of them, which had ever disgraced any ministers, they should get rid of the gentlemen opposite. He agreed, however, with the right hon. gent. that it would have been better if the hon. gent. who brought forward the motion, had waited till the Finance Committee had made its report upon the subject; but still he should vole for the motion. It was his impression, that much detriment would result to the public interests, if there existed no means of conferring rewards for distinguished public services. He was not disposed invidiously to go through the list of sinecure placemen, but must observe, that there were many names amongst them of persons, who either in person, or whose immediate ancestors, had rendered important services to the state. The right hon. gent. however, had said, that a majority of such offices were in possession of persons connected with the side of the House from which he spoke. He could not deny, that the list of those holding sinecure places presented the spectacle of some persons possessing great and opulent private fortunes, and deriving considerable emoluments from the public through such offices. He must, however, contend that the increase of private wealth would not have the effect of diminishing the influence of the crown, and that such a measure as that under consideration, was necessary for that purpose; because that would favour the impression that no such thing was to be expected as gratuitous service from any description of public men. The great objection which he had to Sinecure Offices was, that they had a tendency to introduce into that House a set of men, who could not be expected to give an unbiassed suffrage upon any discussion, and who would at all times be ready to sell their votes for their offices. He objected to these offices, as not only affording means of support to a venal administration, but also as giving birth and strength to a factious opposition to government; when those who vote and are numbered in the day of battle, think they have reason to complain if they happen to be overlooked in the distribution of the spoil. Upon all these grounds he should vote for the motion.

Mr. Creevey

had wished to address the House, immediately after the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer. In opposition to the statement of that right hon. gent. that the influence of the crown had not increased, he was prepared to contend, that it had increased to an alarming extent. Had not colony been added to colony, and influence risen with augmented patronage in a progressive proportion, since the memorable proposition of Mr. Dunning? Had not the crown, since that period, divided the enormous patronage of India with the East India Company? Had Dot the Droits of Admiralty, within a short period, amounted to 8 million, of which no more than 2 million had been applied to the public service, with the exception of 26,000l. which had been given to sir Home Popham, a member of that House? Had not the bank of England been placed at the mercy of the crown, and its payments in cash been restricted, so much to its profit, and to the public detriment? And was the House, then, to be told, that the influence of the crown had not greatly increased? Could they forget the case of Mr. Steele? Could they be insensible to the fact that the present Treasurer of the Navy (Mr. Rose); that the hon. Mr. Villiers; that Mr. Hunt, had sinecure places? These were cases, which, in his opinion, ought not to be placed without the reach of the authority of that House. It really appeared to him, according to the course in which things had proceeded lately, to be a matter of indifference, whether public officers violated, or obeyed the laws. They seemed to be equally sheltered in impunity, and could, upon detection, laugh in the faces of the members of that House. Could any man get up in that House, and assert that to lord Melville, who had lately been even a candidate for office, sinecure emoluments of various descriptions, amounting in the whole to 7,000l. per annum, independent of his allowance from the East India Company, ought to be granted? Could any gentleman get up in his place and say, that any such office to the amount of 1,700l. per annum, should be conferred on Mr. Steele? The House should never forget that the right hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer and his colleagues, were at present on their trial, for having exposed our brave army to the greatest calamities that could befal a military force. What security had that House that the right hon. sent, would not, pending this trial, take to himself, or bestow upon some of his connections, some sinecure office behind their backs? He had seen a correspondence between that right hon. gent. and lord Melville, in which that right hon. gent. had stated, that out of deference to popular prejudices he could not bring that noble lord into office, but would advise his Majesty to confer upon him a signal mark of his favour, by exalting him to a higher rank in the peerage. This was a subject upon which that House was bound to exercise its constitutional controul. The hon. member then adverted to the influence derived through the East India Company; and declared his intention, upon all the grounds he had stated, to vote for the motion.

Mr. R. Dundas

animadverted upon the manner in which the hon. gent. had spoken of lord Melville in the course of his speech. He did not conceive that that hon. gent. was qualified to judge of the public services of that individual, who fully merited all the gratitude, as he did all the rewards, his country had bestowed upon him. He could not answer as to any feelings entertained in the public mind; but he was well convinced there was a general sense of public justice in the British nation, that would not bear any man's character to be traduced who had been acquitted by his peers. He spoke Strongly against the motion.

Lord A. Hamilton

said it was obvious to any man who cast his eyes over the list of sinecures, that these sinecures were given to lord Melville when in the receipt of a very considerable annual income from the places he actually held. For his own part, he was glad to see there was a man in the House who had the courage and the honesty to advert to the case and the circumstances of that noble lord. He had no hostility to his lordship, but spoke as he ever should speak merely from feelings of public duty. He should he as glad to see members on his side of the House cleared of such imputations as those on the other. The right hon. gent. had alluded to the Report of the Finance Committee, and from that Report, among other reasons, thought the motion unnecessary; but had not he himself brought a message to that House only a few days ago, in direct violation of what he had stated? If there were services to be rewarded, let the sinecures be applied to that purpose. It was the violation of this principle the Report complained of, and with that Report before the House, of which the right hon. gent. pretended to approve, he had thus openly acted in hostility to it. He was afraid those sinecures were always given for political services, and not reserved for those fair honest and open services which the country could approve, He should do every thing in his power to have them abolished, and would therefore vote for the motion.

Mr. Bankes

was proceeding to state that if the hon. gent. was really sincere in his desire to promote the object of his motion, he would press upon him the necessity of not bringing the measure forward now, when he was interrupted by

Mr. Fuller,

who spoke to order.—He appealed to the chair, if any hon. member had a right to suppose from any thing he had said that he was not sincere.

The Speaker

interfered, and assured the hon. gent. he was mistaken.

Mr. Bankes

said, he had never entertained the smallest idea that the hon. gent. was not sincere in his object; but the more sincere he was the more he would wish him at that moment not to press his motion. If he did, it would certainly do more harm than good. In times like the present, it was necessary to make retrenchments, and particularly in sinecure offices but it would be impossible to do it in the way proposed by the motion of the hon. gent. If the bill should be brought in; the House must, in the Committee go into the nature and detail of all sinecure offices, which would render it impossible to get through it in the present session. If the House determined to take up the measure, as he hoped it would, it should be by resolutions, laying down the principles, on which it was deemed necessary, in a Committee. Some matters of a similar nature were to be brought forward very soon in consequence of the third Report on the Public Expenditure; and he thought this subject of sinecure offices would come very properly within the meaning and intention of what was in the contemplation of the Committee. He was sensible that no object could be more important than for the House to do something effectual towards abolishing sinecures, which were generally given for ministerial support, and not for reward of laborious or meritorious services. The mode of rewarding by pensions was on every account much better, because they could be given at the moment services were performed; but offices might not be vacant at the time, so that merit must, in many cases, go a long time unrewarded; and perhaps when the office did become vacant, it was given to some one who had never done any service to the country. In adverting to the influence of the crown, he allowed that rewards for public services could lay so properly nowhere else —the crown must be the fountain of honour; the constitution would be vicious, if it dissented from it; but then offices should not be given merely to increase the influence of the crown, which he feared they very often were. If from the particular circumstances of the times, that influence had considerably increased, it ought to be reduced; and to say that the influence of the crown had not, of late years, been greatly extended, was most absurd and futile. With such an immense increase of revenue, it must be the case; and if it had so increased, the House must endeavour to counteract its effects; and he hoped the House would use those endeavours in the present session. If it should be found that any of those sinecures must remain, they should take care that they should be employed in reward of honourable services. He concluded by recommending it to the hon. gent. to withdraw his motion.

Mr. Whitbread

said he could not content himself with giving a silent vote on the present question. He would not oppose any proposition of this nature, but he feared the present motion would not attain the end proposed by the hon. mover. He accused the right hon. gent. opposite of having misrepresented what had been said by his hon. friend (Mr. Ward) on the subject of sinecure places. He was an enemy to sinecures chiefly from the manner in which they were disposed of. Were they employed as the means of rewarding distinguished public services only they could produce no mischief, and would be only another name for pensions. But this was not the case. He adverted to the case of lord Nelson, and said, that at the time he so gloriously fell in the arms of victory, the place of the Cinque ports very soon after became vacant. This was a noble opportunity of worthily bestowing a sinecure place of the first magnitude, by making that perpetual in the family of that gallant officer. What, on the contrary, had become of it? Why, it was given to lord Liverpool, for the eminent services he had performed during a short administration. Perhaps we should soon have another instance of the right hon. gent.'s liberality in rewarding public services. The right hon. gent. (Mr. Dundas) had misunderstood what had been said by his hon. friend relative to lord Melville. He had not cast the smallest reflection on that noble lord. His hon. friend had stated that the Chancellor of the Exchequer had written a letter to lord Melville, extracts of which had appeared in the papers, in which he lamented that he could not off0er him a place in the administration; but he offered him one of the highest honours the crown could bestow, an advance in the peerage; and it was on that act of the right hon. gent. his hon. friend had commented. The right hon. gent. had offered places, too, and honours to many others; but he could not prevail on any one to accept them. The right hon. gent. had said, that those on his side of the House, envied him his situation. He (Mr. W.) did not believe any of them would change with him. Indeed, he only held his situation because no body else would take it. God help him, and all his colleagues with their situations!—and God help the country, which had suffered so much from their being in those situations! He owned, that he and his hon. friends had always avowed they wanted to get rid of the present administration. He believed the whole kingdom wanted to get rid of them. If they wanted to get rid of impotence; if they wanted to get rid of intolerance; if they wanted to get rid of religious bigotry, that had endeavoured to set the nation in a flame; if they wanted to get rid of those, who would prescribe the limits within which they would go into retrenchment, then they must get rid of the right hon. gent. and his colleagues. But who would accept their places? He knew of no candidate. He was no candidate himself, and he had heard of none for the office. The right hon. secretary (Mr. Ryder) by the side of the right hon. gent. would not have been in that situation, if any other person would have accepted it; the other hon. secretary (Mr. Wharton) near him would not have been in that situation which he now held, if any body else would have accepted it; and he asked, if there was not now a vacancy to fill up in the board of controul, which had been allotted and offered to a noble lord who had refused to accept it. The right hon. gent. talked of ministers being the defenders of the crown, but he denied their title to that character; they ought rather to be called the tools of the crown instead of its defenders, when, in defiance of repeated majorities in that House—in defiance of the contempt of the whole nation, they still continued in administration. He then adverted to the bill which had lately passed the House respecting Reversions, and said, he verily believed the Chancellor of the Exchequer would have opposed that bill, and endeavoured to have thrown it out, if he had dared to venture to come to a vote. He commented with considerable severity on the Use that had been made of sinecure places, and asked if another sinecure place was to be given to a public accountant to enable him to vacate his seat, that he might escape before the House could lay hold of him. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had said, the influence of the crown had not increased since the year 1780. He was astonished to hear such language: let the House but look at the immense increase of the revenue, and they would find the increase of influence was such, that it pervaded every part, every corner of the kingdom, and branched out into so many channels, that they would scarcely meet a family, even of the highest classes, as well as others, that was not most materially influenced by it. He thought he could not vole against the proposition if it was to come to a vote, but he hoped the hon. gent. would agree to withdraw it.

Mr. Fuller

said, that if either of the hon. gentlemen would point out a -mode by which the public and himself might bet satisfied that the business was not to be abandoned, but would be brought forward at some time not far distant, he would withdraw his motion; if not, he should now persevere in it, though not a man in the House were to divide with him. A right hon. gent. of great talents, told the House, that they should all be of some party; he supposed he meant we should all wear some distinguishing colour. Was Cicero, however, of any party? Were the Scipios of any party? No, they stood for the good of their country. If the hon. gent. would pledge himself seriously to bring the business forward at some early day, he would consent to withdraw his motion.

Mr. Bankes

said, he would undertake, at a very early period, to bring the matter before the House

Mr. Fuller

asked, when?

Mr. Bankes

replied, on Thursday.

Mr. Fuller

then, with the leave of the House, withdrew his motion.