The Chancellor of the Exchequerrose to move the order of the day, for the house resolving itself into a committee upon the proposed Augmentation of the Salaries of the Judges.
§ Mr. H. Martindeclared his anxiety to learn whether it was proposed to defray the amount of the proposed increase out of the reduction of the Sinecure offices connected with our judiciary establishments; a measure strongly recommended 834 by the most able reports of committees of that house.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerdid not think that the present question should depend upon the nature or quantum of these proposed reductions. He considered the merits of the increase stood upon intrinsic grounds, and that the other was an after consideration. He then moved, that the Speaker do leave the chair for the purpose of going into a Committee.
§ Mr. H. Martinexpressed his anxiety to guard against any misconception or misrepresentation of his opinions. He was distinctly a friend to the principle of the measure, upon the ground that to the great and valuable services of the judicial administration such an increase was highly necessary. But whilst he did justice to the judge, he also thought that it should not be withheld from the people. Fourteen years ago, after very laborious investigations, a Committee of that house had recommended the cessation of Sinecure offices, connected with the courts of law, to the amount of 27,879l. With such information before the house and the country, he asked whether the public were called upon to pay additional and deserved salaries to the Judges, that was not the proper moment to ask the minister who proposed it, whether it was his intention to meet such an additional augmentation from the fund, which must arise from the recommended reduction of useless offices in the courts of law? The answer to the question he was solicitous to obtain, as it would determine his support to the particular motion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerforbore to pledge himself to any conclusive course of conduce, relative to the reduction of those offices. The present measure stood, he contended, upon wholly independent grounds, without any reference whatsoever to the subordinate offices connected with such situations.
§ Lord H. Pettyalso considered the present proposition wholly distinct from any reference to its collateral consequences. It was merely, whether in the present state of the public circumstances, the country was not called upon to render the elevated situation of a judge more commensurate with the labour he performed, and the dignity he was bound to support.
§ The Speakerthen left the chair, and the house went into a Committee.
The Chancellor of the Exchequer,after 835 various preliminary observations, stated the object of his intended resolution, namely, to vote from the consolidated fund, such a sum as would afford 1,000l a year additional, both to the chief barons and justices, and to the puisne judges of the courts of law in England. In pressing such a measure upon the house, he was aware that it would feel the necessity of enabling the elevated individuals in the administration of justice in this kingdom, to support that decent and due dignity; at the same time that such a course should not trench upon their property as individuals, or upon the future interests of their family. With respect to the other judiciary establishments of the united kingdom, he had to propose an increase at present only for the judges of Wales; taking the same standard as he did in the former instance, merely to make the real income equal to the nominal, he proposed an increase for the Welsh judges to the amount of 300l. a year.—With respect to Scotland and Ireland he was obliged to postpone any measureé upon the subject. The house was aware that within a very short period a considerable alteration had taken place in the constitution of the court of session in Scotland. Until that alteration was fully completed, and its effects visible, the delay of such consideration could not, in his opinion, be deemed improper. And as to Ireland, although he had received a letter from the Lord Chancellor of that country, stating the equally strong claims of the Irish Judges to an augmentation of their salary, yet he was not, without further information on the subject, at present inclined to vote any similar proposition relative to that part of the empire. He wished at the same time to be understood, as giving no improper partiality, but as anxious that each measure should be brought forward upon the due occasion. He then moved, That there be voted a sum of 40,000l. out of the consolidated fund for that purpose.
§ Lord H. Pettysupported this measure, so necessary to the proper establishment of dignified and exalted characters, who had always refrained from interference in polities. He trusted that it would be a spontaneous measure with every party in the house. Under all governments, the purity of the judicial establishment was never called in question, so that from the past, we might anticipate security on that head for the future.
§ Mr. C. Wynn,from the extended nature 836 of the Welsh circuits, did not think the augmentation proposed to the Welsh Judges a sufficient one. He proposed, therefore, by way of amendment, that the augmentation should be 500l. per ann. instead of 300l. He knew many respectable persons, who, on being applied to, in order that they should fill those places, declined, on the ground of the great expences.
§ Mr. Bankessupported the amendment, and wished that the Welsh Judges should be excluded from parliament, on the constitutional principle that it was not right that those who were concerned in the exetion should have any share in the legislative part.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, the proposition of the hon. gent. deserved more consideration before it should be adopted, as it would tend perhaps to overturn the present judicature of Wales. He could not agree with another hon. gent. that the Welsh Judges acted in a perpetual judicial character as the Judges of England did.
§ Mr. Adamdefended the proposition of further augmentation to the Welsh Judges, and hoped that those of Scotland, on account of their labour, would be shortly placed in situations relative to those of the English Judges.
§ The Amendment of Mr. Wynn was further supported by Mr. Bathurst, Mr. Horner, lord Milton, and Mr. W. Smith.
§ Mr. Whitbreaddid not oppose the augmentation of the salaries, but asserted the expediency, at the present moment, of directing that public justice should be carried into distant parts of the island twice instead of once a year. He thought, also, that a Welsh judge ought no longer to be allowed to sit in the house of commons, or to hold an office under the crown. He supported the opinion of his hon. friend (Mr. Martin), that the sinecure places in the courts of justice should go to make the increase proposed in the salaries of the judges. If these offices were not abolished at the present moment, at least a pledge ought to be given, that at some given period the sentiments of the committee, which had laid a Report on the table on the subject, would be taken into due consideration.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerdid not think that the time of the judges would allow them to go the northern circuit 837 twice in the year; but this might be a subject of after consideration. As to the proposition of excluding the Welsh judges from the house of commons; if such a regulation were at present adopted, it would appear to be pointed at an individual who had always been most zealous in the discharge of his public duties. Nor was this properly the subject before the house.
§ Mr. G. Vansittartthought, that this was the time for declaring that the place of Clerk of Assize should not be sold in future.
Mr. Ponsonbywas of opinion, that in granting an augmented salary to the Judges, the house ought not to mix any other question with that before them.
§ Mr. Wilberforcestated, that many complaints had reached him of the inconvenience sustained in the north, on account of there not being two assizes in the year.
After a few words from lord Milton, Mr. C. Wynn, and the Attorney General, the original resolution, and also a resolution for granting to the Welsh judges an additional salary of 400l. per annum, were agreed to.—The house having been resumed, the Report was ordered to be received tomorrow.