NAVY ESTIMATES. (Hansard, 27 February 1809)

§ Sir C. Pole
thought that the Navy Estimates should be delayed until the house had time to consider the Reports of the Naval Commissioners, upon which those Estimates were founded. The Fourth Report was, as he had understood, only laid upon the table of the house that day.

Mr. Ward
had no objection to put off the Estimates for a certain time, in order to give gentlemen time to read the Reports; he must, however, deny that these Estimates were altogether formed from those Reports. The various items of the Navy Estimates had been before the house a long time, and gentlemen could see they were only the common and ordinary charges.

§ Lord H. Petty
thought, that if this Fourth Report, which had been laid upon the table that day, contained the reasons which induced the lords of the admiralty to present those Estimates, the house should have time to examine that Report, and judge of those reasons.

§ Mr. Whitbread
thought it strange that Reports, stated to be made in the year 1807, should not be laid on the table of that house till 1809.

§ Mr. Wellesley Pole
said that it was the general custom, when a Report was made, to send it to the board to which it related, in order to regulate its conduct. They were afterwards got back from those boards to be copied, and as those Reports were many and voluminous, the copying of them necessarily took up a great deal of time. He was free to admit, that he had not conceived that it would be material to have the Report sooner on the table. The Fourth Report had been acted on for some time, had been printed by the navy board, and was pretty generally circulated. He confessed he had waited till all the Reports were copied, instead of laying them on the table one by one.

Mr. Ward
said that of the 1,500,000l. which the Estimates of the present year exceeded that of last year, 1,275,000l. was for transports.

§ Mr. Whitbread
thought the hon. gent. ought to have presented the Reports of the naval commissioners one by one as they came out, and not have waited till they were collected in large folio volumes, 1125 which the house had not time to take into consideration.

§ Mr. Wilberforce
thought, that the Reports ought to have been laid on the table the first day of the session, but he did not think there should be any longer delay in bringing forward the Navy Estimates than till next Friday.

§ Sir C. Pole
said, that he certainly did not disapprove of that part of the increase of the expenditure, which proceeded from giving an augmentation to the salaries of the Clerks in the Admiralty. He thought, however, that the board of admiralty had been guilty of great extravagance, and that there must be considerable irregularities in paving the different ships. The crew of the Saturn, a 64, had been seen parading about the streets of the metropolis, and had gone down in a body to the admiralty to demand their pay. He disapproved of the appointment of the additional Commissioners of the Navy, and feared that those appointments were obtained through private influence, and that it was not for the good of the service.

§ Mr. Wellesley Pole
said, that as to the appointments of the persons who were to be the naval commissioners, lord Mulgrave had made it from a list which had been returned, to him by the naval lords, of those captains that were most fit to be commissioners in the navy, and that from that list the appointment was offered to each according to his seniority. As to the crew of the Saturn, the real story was this: That ship had been a long time in India, and on her return to this country, the men got leave of absence from their captain. It was a regulation introduced by the present admiralty, that when a ship returned from having been long abroad on a foreign station, the men were to receive immediately a certain proportion of their pay, and to have leave (if their captain permitted them) to go and see their friends. Now, the Saturn happened not to fall directly within the order, for receiving a certain proportion of pay. The men, however, got leave of absence, and finding themselves in London without Money, they waited at the admiralty, and respectfully asked for a part of their pay. They were ordered to return, and report themselves to their captain, which they immediately did, and by the orders of the admiralty, they received that proportion of their pay, and got farther leave of absence to see their friends. As to the Victualling hoard, the abuses in that department had 1126 been so gross, that it was absolutely necessary to make some changes. He would instance one case, where a man charged 4,000 ton of casks more than existed, and yet his accounts were passed as perfectly regular. The duties of the victualling board had been increased twelvefold since 1798. He meant nothing disrespectful of those dismissed; they had long been in the service, and were very respectable men; but both Mr. Marsh and Mr. Budge were very infirm, and desirous of retiring. Lord Mulgrave called on the members of the board for their opinion, and on their suggestion, he chose Mr. Browne and Mr. Hobbin, the former of whom had been secretary to lord Keith, and the latter secretary to lord Howe. When lord Mulgrave came to the admiralty, it had been previously determined, that Mr. Harrison was to retire from the public service on 500l. a year, being 3-3ths of his salary, and his place he gave to col. Welsh, who had long been an officer in the public service, was a man of business, and a great part of his business was to provide necessaries for the army.— The hon. gent. entered into a defence of lord Mulgrave, as to the appointments which had been alluded to, and insisted, that the Estimates of the Navy did not depend on the Fourth Report, on which so much stress had been laid by the hon. bait. and assured the committee, that whenever the subject came before them, he would be glad to meet the hon. bait., or any other member, on every point which they embraced. He was glad, however, that his hon. friend (Mr. Ward) had agreed to postpone the consideration of them till Friday.