HC Deb 27 April 1809 vol 14 cc268-71
The Chancellor of the Exchequer

moved the order of the day for the house resolving itself into a Committee on this bill. On the motion for the Speaker's leaving the Chair,

Mr. Horner

expatiated on the impro- priety of allowing offices in the courts of law to become saleable. This practice had been justly reprobated by all judicial characters, from lord Kaimes, downwards. The Committee of Finance in 1797 had disapproved of the custom, and had recommended strongly its discontinuance to the house. He merely threw this out as his opinion, for he did not mean to make any specific motion on the subject.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer

agreed with the hon. and learned gent., that the subject to which he had alluded was deserving of consideration, and was of opinion that the house should come to some resolution upon the question in the present session. It would not be right to proceed further in the present instance without communication with the courts, with a view to guard, in any future measures, existing rights and vested property. In the last session, he had given notice of his intention in the present to bring forward a proposition for the increase of the salaries of the puisne judge, and he had to state, that that was still his intention. He thought it would also be right to increase the salaries of the Welsh judges, and of the Chief Justice of the Common Pleas, and of the chief baron of the Exchequer. He had not brought forward this measure at an earlier period of the session, because from the feelings which the mention of it seemed to have excited, he did not apprehend any opposition to it when he should propose to carry it into effect. But he trusted that the house would not think it necessary to make any provision respecting the sale of judicial offices, before this regulation should be adopted, but content itself with a resolution declaratory of its intention to take up that subject next session. In the exceptions, therefore, in the present bill, he proposed that these offices should be included, and should not propose to delay one year the consideration of the expediency of making some regulation respecting them, if that delay could effect or interfere with the administration of justice. But the offices were purely ministerial; and there were other judges in the different courts, besides those, who had the disposal of these places, and who could decide whether the persons appointed were adequate and fit for the offices. It was matter of surprise, that such places should have been excepted in the act of Edward vi.; but, as they had been so long excepted from the operation of that act, and allowed to be sold, it would not be just to take away the right of disposing of them without due consideration, and an adequate equivalent.

Mr. Henry Thornton

observed, that in his idea the operation of the bill ought to be extended to sinecures in the courts, and offices sold by persons holding such sinecures. He did not know all the cases, or how many sinecures of that description existed, but he was confident that many offices were sold that did not belong to the courts of justice to dispose of. The Third Report of the Finance Committee contained a recommendation to abolish sinecures in the courts of law. The Committee of Finance in 1797, had also recommended the abolition of such places, the profits of which were then estimated at 26,000l. By the late Report, it appeared that the amount of these profits had since doubled. There might, perhaps, be room for further inquiry before any legislative measures should be enacted; but when it appeared that the profits of such places amounted to no less a sum than 52,000l. it was his opinion that this sum would afford a very ample fund to remunerate those whose property might be injured by taking away the right of selling judicial offices.

Mr. Rose

stated, that there were many inaccuracies in the estimates of the Committee, and instanced one office, which they had sat down as one having 2,500l. profits, when the actual profits did not exceed 500l.

Mr. H. Thornton

admitted, that some inaccuracies might have existed in the Report, which the committee was at present engaged in examining with a view to their correction, but still declared, that the gross amount of the profits of such places was such as he had stated.

Mr. C. Wynne

thought, that not only the interests of the judges should be protected, but also the interests of other persons who held offices for life, and now exercising the right of selling offices in their departments; which right, he was of opinion, ought not to be suffered to continue. Nothing would more effectually contribute to make the public submit cheerfully to the burthens that were necessary, than that they should see that every saving of the public expenditure that was possible was resorted to.

The house then resolved itself into a Committee upon the bill, Mr. Wharton in the chair.—On the first clause for extending the operation of the Bill to all officers in England and Ireland, an amendment was proposed by lord Folkestone, to insert, the words "and in any part of his majesty's dominions or plantations." The Chancellor of the Exchequer replied, that the object of the noble lord was secured by words to the same effect in a subsequent part of the clause. Mr. Maxwell, in seconding lord Folkestone's amendment, proposed that the operation of the bill should extend to the sale of sheriff's clerkships, and offices under the keeper of the, signet in Scotland. To which the Chancellor of the Exchequer answered, that the bill would extend, as worded, to all offices not legally sold in Scotland, and if the offices alluded to were of that description they would be included within the operation of the bill.—After a few words from Mr. Horner, stating that judicial offices were not enumerated in the bill, and a reply from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that they were enumerated in the act of Edward VI. which was to be affirmed by this bill, the clause was agreed to without the amendment; and on the suggestion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the office of Treasurer of the Navy, which had been inadvertently omitted, inserted in the clause.—In the clause extending the operation of the bill to all offices, civil and military, the word "naval" was introduced on the motion of lord Folkestone.—A long discussion took place upon an amendment proposed by lord Folkestone to insert the words, "and all offices in the East Indies," which terminated in the adoption of the amendment, restricting it to offices in the appointment of the governor-general.

Lord Folkestone proposed, for the purpose of obtaining evidence, to give a reward to the informer, and to indemnify him or her as to any penalty to which they might be subject under the act; the reward to be paid by the person transgressing, and not to be less than 200l.—The Chancellor of the Exchequer objected to the amendment, and pointed out many inconveniencies that would result from its adoption. Lord Folkestone acquiesced in the objection, and suggested that the chairman should report progress.—On the motion of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the clause relating to opening houses for the sale of places, and advertising and printing the same, was rejected; and two clauses introduced in place thereof.—The bill was ordered to be reported on Monday.