HC Deb 20 April 1809 vol 14 cc107-13
Mr. Huskisson

took occasion to call the attention of the house to a subject which, in consequence of the motion of an hon. baronet (sir F. Burdett), had on a former evening produced so much discussion. That motion had been submitted upon Friday; and, as from the statement preceding it there was some reason to apprehend that the building about to be erected by colonel Gordon, would interfere with the comfort and convenience of the hospital, he had thought it his duty to survey the place. This duty he felt due to the house and to the hon. baronet, and accordingly he visited the grounds alluded to. The result of this visit was that colonel Cordon's house being about to be erected upon a scite very inconvenient for the infirmary, he felt dissatisfied; and so far he agreed with the hon. baronet. But yet he wished it to be understood, that this discovery involved no contradiction of the statement he had on a former evening submitted to the house with regard to the conduct of the Treasury. In consequence, however, of this discovery, he thought proper to take a lord of the Treasury to view the premisses, and the effect of that visit was that upon a consultation with, and a recommendation from the governors of the Hospital and the medical gentleman attending it, supported by the opinion of the Surveyor General, the scite of col. Gordon's house was removed. But still he wished it to be understood, that this removal did not take place on account of any change of opinion on the part of the Treasury, with regard to the grounds originally laid before them. To the grounds upon which the Surveyor-General originally reported, that officer still adhered; while the physician and surgeon fully approved of the place chosen for the building of colonel Gordon's house, conceiving it in no degree inconsistent with the comfort and accommodation of the Hospital. The hon. gent. concluded with motions for the production of Letters addressed to the Treasury from the Surveyor-General of Crown Lands and the medical gentleman of Chelsea Hospital, with regard to the grounds to which his observations referred.

Mr. Maxwell

said, that in order fully to satisfy his mind with regard to the premisses in question, he sought to see them on Monday last; but was informed by a person who had the care of the gate, and also by the workmen who were employed about the place, that it was as much as their employments were worth to admit any one. He was, therefore, refused admission, although he stated that he was a member of that house, and also the object of his visit. The refusal surprised him the more, as he understood from other quarters, what had been confirmed by the hon. gent. who had just sat down, that any or all persons connected with government promptly obtained admission.

Mr. Long

professed to be unaware of any orders prohibiting the admittance of the hon. gent., or any other member, from viewing the premisses alluded to. He had seen those premisses, and he thought the projected erection exceptionable; at the same time, he begged it to be understood, that no person connected with the Hospital either in a civil, military, or medical department, had communicated any objection with regard to this building, up to the very day upon which the hon. baronet had made his motion. The consideration of the lease granted to colonel Gordon, was, that he should not raise any building, or even plant any tree likely to create any inconvenience to the Hospital. When the papers explanatory of the whole proceeding were laid before the house, he had no doubt that the conduct of the Treasury would meet with its approbation.

Sir Oswald Moseley

rather wished to suppose that the gentlemen on the other side were unaware of the very exceptionable character of the whole of this transaction. The hon. baronet to whom the merit was due of bringing it before the house, was unfortunately unable, from indisposition, to attend since its original introduction. But he could say for him, that he was not inattentive to the investigation of every thing connected with the subject. As to the prohibition of persons from seeing the premisses alluded to, the hon. baronet slated that he heard such an order of prohibition had proceeded from the present Commander in Chief, adding, that he believed his information was correct. The motive for such an order was suspicious, and that motive must be glaring to every man who considered the subject. It was stated on the part of ministers, that the scite upon which colonel Gordon's house was to be erected had been altered. But that was not enough; the whole of the ground ought to be appropriated to the accommodation of the Hospital. For that purpose it was avowedly purchased from lord Yarborough. Indeed he was informed that, upon such an understanding, lord Yarborough was induced the more easily to dispose of his interest in the lease. If this were true, he must observe that an additional degree of blame attached to the whole transaction. It would be, however, for the gentlemen on the other side to explain this point.

Mr. Huskisson

declared, that he had read the whole of the correspondence with lord Yarborough upon this purchase, and that no such consideration as that alluded to by the hon. baronet had the slightest influence. The only object being, on the part of the noble lord, to obtain the highest price for the ground. Before, indeed, it was proposed to dispose of it to government, a proposition was made to sell it for the purposes of a wharf, but according to the opinion of Mr. Copland, such a disposition of it could not be made. That proposition therefore was abandoned. But with regard to the manner in which the ground was now to be disposed of he was enabled to say, that no person whatever connected with the Hospital objected to the place in which it was proposed to build colonel Cordon's house; no one pretending to say that this ground was necessary to be appropriated in any manner to the accommodation of the Hospital; that the free circulation of air to the Infirmary, or the proper ornament of the Hospital, was likely to be interfered with by the proposed structure. The propriety, indeed, of guarding against any such interference, had, in consequence of some intimation from another quarter, occupied the consideration of the Treasury before the hon. baronet had made his motion upon the subject. It was in consequence of that intimation, and his having viewed the premisses on Saturday, that he had thought it necessary to have the references made, the reports upon which he now proposed to have laid before the house.

Sir O. Moseley

wished to know why these premisses were not applied altogether to the accommodation of Chelsea Hospital, and to the Infirmary in particular; and also, why the gentlemen of that house, who were to judge of the propriety of their application, were prevented from seeing them?

The Chancellor of the Exchequer

observed, that the premisses had been purchased in order that what was necessary might be appropriated to the use of the Hospital. The hon. baronet, when he stated, that the order for excluding persons from the ground proceeded from the Commander in Chief, appeared to him to proceed upon supposition, having heard the order disclaimed on the part of the Treasury and the Pay Office. If he could venture, without having- any information upon the subject, to make a conjecture, the order had been given by the person having a right to the possession of the ground. If any order had been given to exclude members of parliament, it would have been both improper and foolish. But when it was considered how pointedly public attention had been lately drawn to this piece of land, within a mile and a half of this metropolis, it would be obvious how desirable it must be to keep out the great number of persons who might wish to visit the place. He did not think it expedient that a case of this description should day after day continue to occupy the attention of the house, when the most that could be said in the worst view that could be taken of the case was, that there might have been some irregularity in the inferior agent employed in the progress of the transaction.

General Tarleton

observed, that this was only the second time this subject had been under discussion. The effect of the first discussion had been that the scite of the house had been changed; and the advantage that would result from the second would be, that the bar placed against the admission of members, by some invisible hand, would now be removed. He had heard from the nearest relation of the noble lord, that he wished to get a renewal of his lease, but that ministers refused, and stated, that they wanted the whole for the use of Chelsea Hospital; and a pretty application they had made of the land, in appropriating one quarter of an acre to the hospital, and giving the whole of the remainder to an officer not at all connected with it. As our military establishment could not be expected to be diminished, the means of extending the hospital should be kept undiminished: The hon. baronet, who had brought forward this subject, therefore had done well for the public interest.

Mr. Ponsonby

justified his hon. friend (Sir Oswald Moseley) in having stated the report, which he had heard, that the order of exclusion had been given by the Commander in Chief, which he had done only to give the right hon. gentlemen opposite an opportunity of contradicting the rumour if they could. He had risen, however, to ask whether the grant of colonel Gordon had been perfected, so as that by law it could not be avoided; because if so, colonel Gordon having the right to the land, might still erect his house in the very situation, which, it was allowed on all hands, would be inconvenient for the hospital. [It was here stated across the table, that the agreement and grant were conditional that no house should be erected in a situation inconvenient to the hospital.] Well, then, the attempt to erect a building in such a situation was a violation of the condition, and no inquiry had taken place respecting it, until the subject had been brought under the consideration of the house by the hon. baronet, not then in his place. The secretary to the treasury, too, had stated on a former night, that the whole of the ground was such, that a house could not be built upon any part of it, except the spot which had been chosen for the intended house; and yet it now appeared that another situation fit for building upon could be found upon the land.

Mr. Huskisson

had only stated, that a great part of the ground could not be built upon; he had not, nor could he have said, that it was such that the proposed building might not be removed a little to the right or to the left of the situation first marked out.

Mr. Calcraft

felt himself bound in justice to his hon. friend to state that he went on Tuesday to inspect the ground, and had been refused admittance, and, as he was informed, by order of col. Gordon. He rang the bell, when a boy came out and informed him, that he had positive orders from col. Gordon, not to admit any person. He then went on to the hospital, in order to get a written order for admission, from some of his friends there. He was not fortunate enough to meet with any of them, but left a note for one, requesting of him to send an order. The answer he received was, that it was not in his power; but, that upon application to sir David Dundas, he might get an order. It was now said, that in the opinion of the physician and surgeon of the hospital, the former situation was not a proper one; but this was the first time the house had heard of that fact. The right hon. gent. (Mr. Long) had said, that on the day of the debate upon the subject in that house, a complaint had been made to the Chelsea board against the projected situation of the building; but the right hon. gent. must remember that a notice had been given of the motion, [It was on that day, observed Mr. Long, that the complaint was made.] and a notice given in that house the day before the discussion took place, might easily travel to Chelsea, and give rise to the complaint. [It was on the day of the notice, again said Mr. Long, with some earnestness, across the table, that the complaint was made, as will appear from the minutes of the board.] There certainly could be no ground for the warmth shewn by the right hon. gent.; his own object having been calmly to state his view of the case.

Mr. C. Wynn

did not doubt the statement made by the right hon. gent.; but he was surprised, if that had been the case, that the circumstance had never been mentioned until this day. If he remembered what passed on the former occasion, not a word of this had been stated, and he even was persuaded that it had been said that the physician and surgeon of the hospital approved of the scite of the house.

Mr. Long

contended that he had stated the circumstance, and added that it was I he scite of the Infirmary that was said to have been approved of by the physician and surgeon of the hospital.

Mr. Barham

thought, that as many members had been prevented from inspecting this ground, it would be desirable that the house should, on some future day, be made acquainted with the person who had given the order for exclusion: it required explanation, why, when a suspicion had been excited respecting the grant of this land, members had been refused the power of inspecting it; and he trusted that the right hon. gent. (Mr. Long) would enquire into the matter, and communicate it to the house on some future day.

The Papers were then ordered, and Mr. Huskisson presented them from the bar.