IRISH CURRENCY.

HC Deb 18 April 1809 vol 14 cc75-91

Mr. Parnell

desired that the Report of a Committee appointed in 1804, to enquire into the State of Ireland, as to its Circulating Paper, its Specie, and current coin, and the Exchange between that part of the United Kingdom and Great Britain, should be read, and the same having been entered by the clerk as read, the hon. gent. addressed the house as follows;—

Mr. Speaker

; I rise, Sir, for the purpose of moving that the house do resolve itself into a committee of the whole house, to take this Report into consideration; and if the house shall think proper to accede to this motion, I shall then submit to the committee the following Resolution: "That it is expedient that the Coin of the United Kingdom shall be of the same standard and value as the Coin now is of Great Britain."—It appears to me, Sir, that the difference which now exists between the currencies of Great Britain and Ireland contributes to keep alive a feeling of separation and distinction between the inhabitants of these countries, very inconsistent with their mutual prosperity: that it gives a character to the respective parts of the United Kingdom that belongs rather to countries foreign to each other than to members of the same community, a character by no means belonging to the spirit of real union and the true interests of the peo- ple. I have always considered the Act of Union as very imperfect, because it did not provide for the assimilation of the coin; and though I opposed that measure, and now think that it ought to be repealed, if the expectations which the people of Ireland were taught to entertain of its beneficial consequences are for ever to be disappointed, still I am desirous to do every thing that can be done to establish unanimity and identity, between the two countries, and therefore I wish to see the difference in the currencies completely done away.—Another bad consequence of this difference, is the restraint that it imposes upon the commercial intercourse of the two countries; a restraint very inconsistent with that perfect freedom of trade, which is necessary, in order that trade may be carried on to the greatest possible advantage. For though the operation of converting sums of one currency into sums of the other is a very simple one, and to those accustomed to it may present no difficulty whatever, still it necessarily must be to all others the source of doubts, respecting the results of any commercial speculation connected with Ireland in which they may embark, and therefore it must contribute to deter many from undertaking such speculations, however strong the probability of their success might be, if the local circumstances, and national resources of Ireland were alone taken into consideration. I therefore feel that there is good ground for stating, that this difference does form an obstruction of very considerable effect to the free circulation of the capital, labour, and industry of these countries, and, consequently, ought to be removed.—But the principal inconvenience that results from the present state of the currencies is, in my opinion, the existence of an Exchange between them: such a thing not being known ever to exist between any two places that have a circulating currency common to both of them.* I shall endeavour to support this opinion by an examination of the causes of fluctuations of exchange, and by reference to such authorities as ought to have considerable weight in the house upon this subject.—Exchange between London and Dublin is considered to be at par, when a bill for 100l., payable in London, will *The commission and interest charged on bills drawn at Bristol, Liverpool, &c. on London, not being considered in the nature of an exchange. sell in Dublin for 108l. 6s. 8d. This exchange, except when influenced by some temporary and very particular occurrences, fluctuates from one to two per cent. above and below par. It was, in 1804, so high as nine per cent. in favour of London; but, in the last two months it has been two per cent. in favour of Dublin. Fluctuations of this sort are attended with great inconveniences to trade, and considerable loss to individuals, who have occasion to make large remittances of money from one country to the other. They have been attributed to various causes. Some persons have said that the remittances of rents to absentee proprietors; others, that the balance of trade; and others, that the depreciation of the currency of Ireland, were the circumstances that occasioned them. I am, sir, of opinion, that the doctrine which lays it down that remittances of rents give rise to them, is not tenable: because, as these rents are annually and constantly remitted the rates of exchange would be constantly unfavourable; whereas the fact proves the contrary, the exchange being more frequently in favour of Ireland than in favour of England. The balance of trade is not a good criterion to go by, for two reasons; first, because in the Customhouse statements, from which the balance is taken, no entry is ever made of the quantity of money imported and exported, though money, in its true character, is as much a commodity of trade as any other article: secondly, because in calculations of this kind no allowance is made for any alterations which may occasionally take place in the value of the currencies of the respective countries carrying on the trade in question; though every variation in the value of them will have its effect upon the rates of exchange, and sometimes render an exchange nominally unfavourable, though in reality it may be quite the Contrary. The opinion which I entertain upon the subject of these fluctuations in the rates of exchange is this, that whenever they are very great, and that the rates of exchange continue for any time very unusually high against one country and in favour of the other, there has been some great depreciation in the value of the currency of that country to which the exchange is unfavourable. This was proved to be the case, in respect to Ireland, in 1804. But, if it is desired to explain upon what circumstance the ordinary fluctuations depend, then I should say, that the best explanation to be given is the usual one, that they depend upon the proportion which the supply of bills of exchange in the market bears to the demand for them, and that if a more radical explanation is sought for, the attempt to discover one will altogether fail. In order, therefore, to do away these fluctuations in the rates of exchange, it is necessary to do away all fluctuations in this proportion which the supply bears to the demand for bills of exchange. But as this is impracticable, then we are to consider what the functions are of bills of exchange, and endeavour to attain some other thing possessing their properties. The peculiar characteristic of them is the facility which they afford in making remittances of money from one country to another; but of this quality bank paper is equally possessed, if it has currency in both countries; for so soon as the bank paper of one country is current in the other, or can be converted into paper there current, then a person wishing to remit can do so with bank paper, and at no other expence than that of the postage of the letter containing it. The means of remittance will no longer be confined to bills of exchange; fluctuations in the proportion which the supply of these bills bears to the demand will no longer produce fluctuations in the rates of exchange, but the funds of making remittances being the whole paper currency, the existence of an exchange must cease altogether.—If then, Sir, Bank of England paper was current in Ireland, and Bank of Ireland paper, of a given value, convertible into Bank of England paper of the same value, every person having occasion to make a remittance to London would be able to do so by sending Bank of England paper to his London correspondent: he would no longer be dependant upon the supply of bills of exchange, and he never would be under the necessity of paying a premium for the means of making his remittance. It is very easy to illustrate the accuracy of this statement by reference to the way in which matters of this kind are conducted between London and Liverpool, or any other place carrying on a great trade with London. A person in Liverpool having occasion to make a remittance to London can do so, either by a bill of exchange, or by bank paper, equally current at Liverpool and at London. If he could not obtain bank paper current at both places, then he would be compelled to purchase a bill of exchange, and thus have to pay a premium or receive one, according to the quantity of bills at Change. Now, as the only difference in the relative circumstances of Liverpool and London, and Dublin and London, in regard to exchange, is that Liverpool and London have a currency of Bank paper common to both places, and that Dublin and London have not such a currency, it is plain, that if such a currency was established between Dublin and London, the existence of an exchange between these places would no more exist than it now does between Liverpool and London.—I am aware, sir, that the assimilation of the Coin of the United Kingdom may be effected without reference to the currency of Bank paper; but, sir, as my object is to establish not only an assimilation of coin, but of the currencies as composed both of coin and Bank paper, and as I conceive that the assimilation of the coin should be accompanied with regulations, so as to secure a common currency of Bank paper, I feel that I have a right to infer from the foregoing arguments, that if the assimilation of the coin is accompanied by such regulations, the exchange will be entirely done away. I am also aware, sir, that it will, is some degree, depend upon the conduct of the Directors of the Bank of Ireland, whether or not Bank of England paper shall become current in Ireland. But though it certainly might be made so more easily by their assistance than without it, I shall presently shew, that its becoming current there does not depend altogether upon them. I have too good an opinion of the Directors of this Bank to think that, if every thing was done towards establishing a common circulating medium of paper between both countries, except what they had it in their power to do, they would so far oppose the public interest as to refuse to pay their notes with Bank of England notes, or with bills on London payable at certain fixed rates for interest and commission. I have, sir, the authority of the committee, whose Report has been read, for the practicability and policy of such an arrangement. They say, "Other modes of obtaining a common medium, such as that of inducing or even compelling the Bank of Ireland to give Bank of England Notes in exchange for their own on demand, or to make their own exchangeable for them in London, or to give Bills of Exchange on London for them,, have been suggested; and there is no doubt any of them would have the effect of rectifying the exchange. The objection that has been made to this proposal, is the difficulty and expence to the Bank of Ireland which would attend the procuring a fund in London on which to draw. On this your Committee observe generally, that neither the difficulty nor the expence attendant on this measure would be so great as that to which the Bank, by its constitution, is necessarily subject at all times when not protected by a restriction from performing its engagements; and that whatever funds the Bank formerly applied, or intend again to apply, on the removal of the restriction, to provide for the difficulty and expence of obtaining a supply of gold, might in the interim be applied to the procuring of English Bank notes; the Evidence of Mr. Winthrop points out the practicability of obtaining a sufficient supply of Bank of England notes with such a fund; his expression is, that 'the Bank of Ireland, or any person, may procure Bank notes now to any extent if they will pay for them.' But Mr. Mansfield's Evidence so clearly shews the practical mode of carrying this measure into effect, that your committee cannot impress it too strongly upon the attention of the house; it shews, in the example of Scotland, how effectually a very small sum, vigorously and wisely applied, did operate, and that banks there did establish an adequate fund, with ultimate advantage to themselves.—His account states, that 'There was, after the peace of Versailles in 1763, an exchange of 5 or 6 per cent. against Scotland with London, created by per-sons collecting Gold from the different banks there, bringing it to London, and passing their bills at Edinburgh for it, in order to put a profit into their own pockets by raising the exchange. The 'two chartered Banks of Scotland seeing that this exchange arose from artificial means, collected as much funds as they could to bring to London, and by draw-ing gradually at ½ or 1 per cent. less than the others, reduced the exchange to what they esteemed par bills of 40 days date;' at which it has steadily continued ever since, unaffected by the failure of the Bank of Ayr; the convulsions to credit in general in 1792 and 1793; the failures in 1795; and the difficulties which caused the restriction in 1797 in England, but which was not extended to the chartered Banks of Scotland; and all this not- withstanding the great presumption, that if an account of ail pecuniary transactions between Scotland and England could be ascertained, it must have often happened that the balance was against the one country or the other.—This fact gives great force to the arguments of those witnesses who propose that the Bank of Ireland should establish a credit for the like purpose in London; and the present peculiar situation of the Irish Finances not only point out a ready, but an adequate and effective fund, which at the same time that it gives to the Bank of Ireland every prospect of success, which has attended the measures of the chartered Banks of Scotland, exempts it from all expence, risk, or difficulty which might attend it; for your Committee must observe, that the Bank of Scotland undertook to provide this fund at their own expence, but the Bank of Ireland has an opportunity of establishing it without expence to themselves; and further, it appears to have been suggested to the Banks of Scotland by their good sense and patriotism, to try the efficacy of a measure without precedent, while the Bank of Ireland has only to follow an example where success has been already demonstrated by experience." I therefore, Sir, in saying as I now do, that a common circulating medium of Bank paper may be established by the Bank of Ireland, say that which is recommended to be done by this committee, upon their finding that a similar measure had been adopted in Scotland with complete success. But, Sir, independant of these motives to induce the Bank of Ireland to make their paper convertible into Bank of England paper, their own private interests should have great weight in pointing out to them the policy of such a step; for, if it should be attended with the consequence of preventing future fluctuations in the rates of exchange, it will relieve them, whenever the restriction of cash payments is taken off, from the expence of providing guineas to answer the great demands which are made for them whenever the exchange is unfavourable to Ireland; and for the same reason the Bank of England is also interested in preventing fluctuations in the rates of exchange, as they are liable to similar demands upon them, whenever the exchange is unfavourable to England. If however, Sir, the Bank of Ireland should refuse to give Bank of England notes in exchange for their own on demand, or to give bills on London for them as has been suggested, the currency of Bank of England paper may in a great measure be obtained in Ireland, by making it a legal tender equally and to the same extent as Bank of Ireland paper is. One effect of this regulation would be the impossibility of an exchange unfavourable to England, because no one would go to 'Change and give a premium for a bill of exchange, when he could get a bank note without a premium, which would answer every purpose of a bill in making a remittance to Ireland; and thus one half of the business of doing away the exchange would be accomplished. But just in the degree and to the extent that Bank of England paper would be sent to Ireland for the purpose of keeping exchange favourable to England, a stock of it would be there established with which the exchange would be prevented from becoming unfavourable to Ireland; for, as the tendency of the exchange to be unfavourable to Ireland would arise from the demand for bills on London being greater than the supply, all this stock of Bank paper would come in to the aid of the bills in meeting the demand for the means of making remittances. I cannot think that it is proposing a very unreasonable thing to require that Bank of England paper should be as current in one part of the United Kingdom as in other parts, and that, if there is no objection to give it that quality in the farthest parts of England, and the most remote quarters of Scotland, now that Ireland forms one and the same country with England and Scotland, it is but removing a distinction that ought not to exist, to make it as current in Ireland.—I have now, sir, stated the several reasons that occur to me to prove the policy of assimilating the currencies of the United Kingdom, and I shall now proceed to lay before the house very good authority in support of the arguments which I have made use of. The Committee already referred to, in their report say, "if it shall be thought expedient to equalize the currency, by making the shillings contain only twelve-pence, Your Committee submit the advantage of doing so."—As to the effect of an assimilated currency of bank paper, they say, "Your Committee cannot entertain a doubt of the practicability of what they recommend," [That the Bank of Ireland should pay their notes in Bank of England paper, or in bills of fixed rates on London], "nor that it ought to have the sure effect of reducing exchange to par. In case of such event, they would also strongly urge the doing away the name of exchange, and putting an end to its calculation, by equalizing the monies of account and monies of circulation in both countries, and the fixing the future interchange by bills, at a stated number of days, adequate to defray the expence of remitting at all times, so as fully to adopt the same practice which prevails between Edinburgh and London, and between Liverpool and London." And then they go onto say, "Before your Committee quit the subject of exchange, they wish to observe, that if their enquiries have failed in enabling them to propose any effectual remedy, still a remedy ought to be sought for by the wisdom of the house, for that a great country, now placed as Ireland is under the same legislature with England, forming a constituent part of the united empire equally as England, or any county in England does, its metropolis, not so distant from London as any part of Scotland, Newcastle, Carlisle or Durham, should labour in its pecuniary intercourse with England, under a constant varying exchange, which the others are free from, is a portion so strange that your Committee cannot believe it to be founded in the common nature of things."—But, Sir, I can yet refer to a still better authority in support of the policy of assimilating the currencies. I mean to the precedent—the proceedings relative to the Coin of England and Scotland at the time of the Union afford. At that period there existed a difference between the currencies of these countries exactly similar to the difference between those of England and Ireland; the English shilling being then current in Scotland for 13 Scotch pence, and the rates of exchange feeing 11 to 12 per cent. against Scotland. Those who were concerned in drawing up the terms of the Scotch Union were so fully impressed of the advantage which would attend the getting rid of this difference in the currencies, and of this unfavourable exchange, that they framed a specific article for the purpose. The 16th Article, declaring, "That from and after the Union, the Coin shall be of the same standard and value throughout the United Kingdom as now in England." It is mentioned, Sir, by De Foe, in his History of the Union, that measures were so taken that no inconvenience whatever attended the assimilation of the currencies, and that the rates of exchange, which before were 11 or 12 per cent. to the disadvantage of Scotland, immediately came to par. A circumstance, Sir, which is most strongly illustrative of the accuracy of those arguments which I have advanced concerning the exchange between England and Ireland.—I have now, Sir, stated to the house what appears to me to be conclusive proof of the policy of this measure of assimilation. I do not think that any arguments ever were advanced on any subject so completely borne out by authority and precedent as those which I have submitted to your consideration. The Committee to whose Report I have referred, consisted of persons perfectly well qualified to perform the task imposed upon them; and nothing can be more in point than what took place at the time of the Scotch Union.

I shall next proceed to state the Plan, which upon the fullest consideration, appears to me to be the best calculated to accomplish this measure. Till the reign of William III, the currencies were the same in both countries, and it was only on the issuing of the new silver coinage by this king that, for the first time, the English shilling was made current for 13d. The guinea of England was current in Ireland for 23s. till 1736, when it was reduced to 22s. 9d., so as to correspond in value with the shilling at 13d. The present coin of Ireland is composed of guineas, which circulate in considerable quantities in the north, of silver bank tokens, Spanish dollars, and of copper coin issued in 1805. The value of the shilling at 13d. forms the whole difference between the coin of Ireland and England; and that being the case, it is plain that the way to get rid of it, is to make the English shilling current for 12d. The Report of the Committee, to which I have so often alluded, points out this way of proceeding, it states, that "The equalization of the currency may be accomplished by making the copper penny, halfpenny and farthing of England equally current in Ireland as the silver shilling and golden guinea; and the Committee recommend that they should be so made current in preference to the forming of a new copper coinage of a separate device or description for Ireland." The Privy Council, however, did not think proper to adopt this recommendation of the Committee, but, on the contrary, advised his majesty to issue a copper coinage for Ireland in 1805, having a separate device and description. I am ready to acknowledge that this step has thrown an obstacle in the way of the assimilation; but it is one by no means of such a nature as to be insurmountable. It has been suggested to me that this object might be attained by issuing a proclamation declaring that the shilling should be current for 12d. of this coin; but as this measure would be justly liable to the imputation of being an unfair one, I shall not propose it. But I shall adopt the plan recommended by the Committee, of making the English penny, halfpenny, and farthing current in Ireland. In order to carry this measure into effect, it would be necessary to call in the copper coin now circulating in Ireland, and to issue a new coinage of the same standard and value as the English copper coin, and if this new coinage was prepared, so as to be ready to be issued to supply the place of the present one when called in, no inconvenience would be experienced by the people of Ireland. There would certainly be some loss to the revenue, on this transaction. As, however, this coin has been issued for more than its intrinsic value, the loss would be confined to the expence incurred in making it, and to the weight of copper lost by the wear of the coin. The expence of making it was 42l. per ton for the penny, and 49l. per ton for the halfpenny and farthing coins, and 5l. per ton for packing, carriage and freight. There were made 152 tons of pennies, and 448 tons of halfpence and farthings. The whole expense being 41,336l. But all this sum would not be lost to the public, if the new coinage could be made upon the same terms as the last, because this was issued at a clear profit of upwards of 20,000l. But, though a loss should be to be incurred equal to the difference between the expence of making the last coinage and the profit of issuing 600 tons of new coin, it will be of little consideration when compared with the advantages to be derived from the transaction. As to the loss by the wear of the coin, this could be very little, in consequence of its having been so recently issued.—I shall now, Sir, advert to the silver money of Ireland. If that had continued to consist of mint silver as it did till 1804, no difficulty, whatever, would present itself on this head; but as there is now no mint silver in Ireland, and as its place is supplied by bank tokens, it is to be considered what shall be done with them in the arrangement for accomplishing the assimilation. They consist of pieces bearing the value of 6s. 30d. 10d, and 5d. Those for 6s. have been issued by the bank of Ireland on their own account, each token is a Spanish dollar newly stamped; and as the dollar is now current in Ireland for 4s. 10d. it circulates in these tokens for 14d. more than its true value. The amount of them in circulation is 232,352l. The other tokens had been issued by the bank on account of the government, under the 45 Geo. 3, c. 42, and 48 Geo. 3, c. 31. By these acts the token for 5d. contains 1–13 part of a Spanish dollar; for 10d. 2–13, and for 30d. 6–13 parts: thus giving to the dollar the value of 5s. 5d., being 7d. more than its true value*. The amount of these tokens in circulation is 743,404l.—As, however, these tokens were issued to serve a temporary purpose, and to supply the place of mint coin, till a fit opportunity should present itself for issuing a new silver coinage, I shall propose, sir, in order to render the silver currency of Ireland, the same as that of England, that a new coinage shall be issued common to both countries, and I feel that I am fully warranted in making this proposal so far as England is concerned, because it is quite notorious that there is an absolute necessity for a new coinage in this country.—What I have proposed to be done so far, can be accomplished by the executive government, but this will not be sufficient, I have other measures to propose, but these must be carried into effect by act of parliament. As, Sir, I am most anxious that the alteration in the value of the currencies should not be attended with any injury to individuals, and that they should not have any grounds for entertaining even apprehensions of suffering injury, I shall propose that an act of parliament should be passed to declare that all contracts for sums of money, made previous to the day, on which his majesty should fix by his proclamation the assimilation to take place, should be construed as sums of Irish currency, unless otherwise expressed by the contract; and that all contracts for sums of money made subsequent to that day, should be construed to be for sums of British money, unless also otherwise expressed. Such a regulation would secure the *It is impossible that any arrangement of the value of these tokens, could have been more against the spirit and advice of the report of the Committee than this, because 30d. 10d. and 5d. Irish are not convertible into any adequate sums of English currency. faithful performance of all contracts, and prevent the possibility of any injury being sustained by the parties to these contracts.—I have also to propose, that it shall be provided by act of parliament, that no banker shall issue, notes for sums in Irish currency after the same period; and in order to secure the currency of Bank of England paper in Dublin, with a view of obtaining an assimilation of paper currency as well as of the currency in coin, I shall propose that this paper shall be made a legal tender in Ireland equally with the Bank of Ireland paper. I conceive, Sir, it is quite sufficient to make the bank paper of one country current in the other, in order to obtain a common currency of paper, and that it will not be necessary to make Bank of Ireland paper a legal tender in England, because the power of converting Bank of Ireland paper into Bank of England paper in Ireland, which must be the result to a great degree of making the latter a legal tender there to the extent proposed, will give to the Bank of Ireland paper all the qualities of the latter.—These, Sir, are the several measures which I propose to have adopted, as forming a plan calculated to accomplish the assimilation of the currencies of the two countries. And, I feel quite confident, that each of them is not only practicable, but, in every respect calculated so as not to injure any one. I am very well aware of the great difficulty of arranging a plan for such a purpose, and was it not that I find such good authority for every thing that I have proposed, in the report of the Committee of this house and in the precedent of Scotland, I should be very backward in recommending it with the degree of confidence that I now do.—But, before I quit this part of the subject, I beg leave to call the attention of the house to some observations upon the probable operation of this plan. In regard to money on account, or the way in which accounts are stated, it will be optional to adhere to the mode of stating them in Irish currency, or to adopt the money of account in use in England. It certainly will be most convenient to state them in English currency because the money of account will correspond with the money of circulation. In respect to payments of money, those made with guineas, mint silver, or bank notes current for guineas, the operation of making them will be exactly the same as it now is. The guineas, will pay 22s. 9d. Irish currency, just as it now does, the half crown 2s. 8d., the shilling 1s. 1d. Every one, therefore, receiving or paying rent, or interest money with them, will receive or pay just as much, both nominally and really, as he receives or pays under the present state of things. But payments made with bank notes current for so many pounds British currency, or with the new copper coin will appear to be differently made; though in reality they will not be so; for though 12d. of the new coin will pay what 13d. of the present one pays, as 12d. of the new coin will contain as much copperas 13d. of the present coin, the value of 12 pennies of one will be equal to the value of 13 pennies of the other. So the pound note for 20s., though it will pay what the pound note for 20s. Irish pays together with 1s. 8d. Irish, as it will be worth 20 shillings, and each shilling will be worth 12d. of the new coin, it will be exactly of the same value as the Irish pound note, together with the 1s. 8d. Irish; and, therefore, the difference in way of making payments with those notes will be a nominal and not real one. For if a landlord shall receive 108l. 6s. 8d. of his rents as staled in Irish currency, by the payments of a note for 100l. of the new currency, he will receive the full value of his rent, because he will be able to obtain for this note of 100l. as many, guineas, shillings, or pence, as he could get with 108l. 6s. 8d. of paper of Irish currency; or rather, sir, to speak with greater accuracy, he would be able to purchase with this note for 100l. as many commodities as he could purchase with the 108l. 6s. 8d. of Irish currency. It being an established maxim in the science of political economy, that the real value of a commodity does not depend upon the value of the money with which it is purchased, but upon the proportion which the supply bears to the demand of such commodity. If, sir, I was not perfectly convinced of the truth of this maxim, I never would have proposed any alteration in the currency of Ireland. For if landlords should be injured by it, I have many reasons to be adverse to it; and I should hope that I shall have credit given to me when I say, that the last thing that I would ever undertake would be a measure by which the tenantry of Ireland should be clandestinely injured.—I have now, Sir, only to make a very few observations as to the time of carrying this plan into effect. I conceive, sir, that no time can be so fit as the present, because it so happens that exchange is nearly at par. When the Committee made their Report, exchange was so much against Ireland, that it formed a very inconsiderable obstacle to the measure which they recommended. As it may again become unfavourable in the same degree in which it was before to one country or the other, in consequence of the power which the bank possesses of issuing whatever quantity of paper it pleases, it is particularly desirable that this opportunity should not be lost. This in fact has been the very first opportunity that had occurred since the committee made its report; and it is for this reason that I have thought it advisable to bring the subject before the house.—The conclusion then, Sir, which I desire that the house may draw from what I have said, is, that this measure of assimilating the currencies would be productive of the removal of feelings of distinction between the people of England and Ireland that ought not to exist; that it will relieve the commercial intercourse of these countries from a great and injurious restraint; and that it will do away the existence of an exchange between them; that the plan for carrying it into effect is one of great simplicity, and perfectly practicable without injury to any one, and that the present is the most fit period that could occur for accomplishing it; and though I cannot expect that a proposal of a great alteration in a manner so extremely abstruse and complicated, can at once meet with very general approbation, I do feel confident that the more it is examined, the greater will be the numbers of those who will give their support to it.—I shall move, Sir, that yon do now leave the chair.

Mr. Foster

said, that though he agreed with the hon. gent, as to the eligibility of doing away the exchange between the two countries, yet he could not subscribe to the measure which he proposed, as he did not consider it calculated to produce the end; even if it were, he did not know by what legislative measure they could enforce the adoption of it. Remittances, however made, must be made in money, and both banks were tied up from issuing a guinea beyond a certain sum. He thought it impossible to put down the exchange altogether; perhaps the most they could expect was to prevent the fluctuations to which it was now subject. The hon. gent. recommended that the bank of England paper should be a legal tender in Ireland; but he (Mr. F.) would ask, was the bank of Ireland paper a legal tender here? And he would warn the house how it would adopt any measure, the consequences of which might be so injurious to the country, as the making of bank paper a legal tender in any part of the kingdom. He must oppose the motion for going into a committee, as no good could result from it, and much injury might possibly ensue, in the present state of things, if the attempt were made without success. About four years ago, there was scarcely any currency in Ireland, but since then there was a sufficiency of silver to answer all her domestic purposes; she was also in complete possession of a copper currency much better than that of England; the amount of her silver currency was about 1,200,000l., 200,000 of which was issued by the Bank of Ireland in Bank tokens; there was no part of the Irish currency aliquot parts of the English denomination. The hon. gent, proposed to call in and recoin all this money; but he had not stated what was to be done in the mean time, or how the inconvenience of waiting until it was recoined, was to be obviated. He (Mr. F.) was against holding up to the expectations of the country what was impracticable, and therefore he would oppose the motion for going into a committee.

Mr. O'Hara

said, that the cause of the exchange between the two countries was, that one was in debt to the other, in which case, the exchange was always in favour of that which was the creditor. Ireland was much in debt to England.

Mr. H. Thornton

said, that he was a member of the committee to which the hon. gent. had referred, but when the committee recommended the measure he had quoted, they had a view to an antecedent measure, which did not take place.

Mr. Ponsonby

said, that though he entertained the greatest respect for every thing that fell from his hon. friend, who had, upon that occasion, displayed great ability and knowledge; still he was of opinion, that his plan would, after all, be attended with considerable difficulty, if it was not altogether impracticable. While the restriction with respect to the issuing of money from the Banks existed, he thought there was a great obstacle to it; nor did he think that the equalization of the coin would produce so great an effect upon the exchange as the hon. gent. seemed to think. A bill which had been brought forward by an hon. friend of his, the member for Waterford, (Sir J. Newport) per- mitting the export of corn from Ireland into England, had done more to equalize the exchange than all the other causes put together. Looking forward with hope to the time when it would be more practicable than at present, he would, if he might presume to advise his hon. friend, recommend that he would not press the house to a division upon the question.

Mr. D. Giddy

allowed that it would be a desirable object to assimilate the course of exchange, but did not think the measure before them calculated to effect it.

Mr. Parnell

said, that he wished to set himself right in the conception of the house, in a few parts of his statement, in which he had been misapprehended. He was always aware that bank paper was not a legal tender, and he thought he had guarded against the appearance of any intention of making it so, as his words were "as legal a tender in Ireland as in England," not simply a legal tender. As to what the right hon. gent. opposite (Mr. Foster) had said, his whole argument was founded on a misconception. When he proposed to call in the coin, he did not intend that it should be done until new coin was prepared to supply its place. As to what had been objected against the assimilation of the coin, &c. as inadequate to keep down the exchange, they would find that it had succeeded in Scotland; and with respect to the objection of time, the present state of exchange, as he had said before, rendered it peculiarly appropriate.

The motion was then negatived without a division.