The Chancellor of the Exchequer,after moving the order of the day for going into a committee on the Petitions against the Orders in Council, thought it right, before he should move that the Speaker do leave the chair, to state the course which he proposed to recommend to the house to adopt, on the subject of the examination of other witnesses, and which, upon inquiry, he found to be conformable to the precedents of the practice of the house on similar occasions. It was therefore not his intention to move this day for the production of other evidence, but according to the practice of the house to allow the present petitioners to close their case, and afterwards to hear the observations of their counsel, upon the evidence produced by them. It would then be competent to the house, if the evidence should not appear sufficient, to call upon the other petitioners, or upon other witnesses, and to examine them, touching the subject. But as it might not be fair, to call upon the learned counsel, suddenly, to submit his observations to the house, upon the evidence, he proposed, that, however short the time might be, which would be occupied this night in the examination of the remaining witnesses, the business should stand over till Tuesday, when the learned counsel should he heard upon the evidence.
§ Mr. Tierneythought, that even the course proposed on the preceding evening, by the right hon. gent. that of hearing the contrary evidence, and of being present by their counsel to cross-examine the witnesses that should be brought forward, before he was finally to sum up, would have been much more desirable for the petitioners than that now suggested. It would be peculiarly hard upon the petitioners, if evidences should be brought forward to disprove the allega- 1252 tions of their petition, and contravert the evidence they produced in support of them, that they should not be permitted to cross-examine the witnesses by their counsel, or call other witnesses in support of their case. The house was placed in a novel situation by the course pursued by the right hon. gent. though all these difficulties might be avoided, if the proceeding had originated in a committee of trade.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerinsisted that the proceeding was perfectly regular, and adverted to the precedent of the course adopted upon a Petition against the Tobacco bill in the year 1790, as fully in point; on which occasion the petitioners evidence and counsel had been heard at the bar; and the house had afterwards thought fit to call for other witnesses, and to examine with respect to the matter of the petition and the evidence brought forward in support of it.
§ Mr. Tierneyacquiesced for the present, but reserved to himself the right to oppose the course proposed by the right hon. gent. if it should appear to him not to be regular.
§ The Speakerthen laid down the practice of the house in a clear and satisfactory manner. Whatever course it should ultimately please the house to adopt, the proceeding, he observed had been hitherto perfectly regular. In the opposition which had been given to the Boston port bill, and the bill to restrain the Trade of New England, petitioners had been heard by their counsel at the bar of this house, and evidence examined in support of their petitions, but that had not precluded the house from taking such other steps as were deemed expedient to investigate the allegations of the petitioners. There were many instances of the examination of witnesses upon petitions, at the bar of the house, but the later practice had been to examine witnesses at the bar in a committee of the whole house. As to the proceeding in a Committee of Trade, when petitioners presented themselves to that house, and prayed to be heard by their counsel, the practice was, if their petition was received, to accede to the prayer of it, and by the habit of the house, after hearing evidence, to permit the counsel to sum up the whole at the conclusion of the case. The house had then many courses, any one of which it might adopt, but it was quite impossible that a committee of the whole house should be tied up by the 1253 evidence produced in support of the allegations of the petitions, which might be erroneous partial, absurd, or even false, as might be proved by other evidence. There were also many cases wherein the house, without any claim made on the part of an adverse party to be heard, had thought fit for its own satisfaction to call for further evidence, after the Petitioners case had closed. The Tobacco case, which had been referred to by the rt. hon. the chancellor of the exchequer, was one of that description. For, after the petitioner and his counsel had closed the case and withdrawn, the house ordered other witnesses to attend, and the committee sat again to hear the evidence of these witnesses, and the house took other proceedings thereon. If any gentleman had any doubts on the subject, he would do well to consider that case. The case of the Shop Tax bill was similar. The proceedings, therefore, had been hitherto all regular, and the next step would be to hear out the case of the petitioners, and the observations of their counsel in summing, after which the house would decide whether it should order other witnesses to attend, or whether other evidence should be necessary.
The house then resolved itself into the committee, and proceeded with the examination of the remaining witnesses in support of the Petitions. Mr. Garland, Mr. Pollock, Mr. Mann, and Mr. Rathbone were the witnesses examined. After the examination was closed it was agreed by the gentlemen who conducted it on both sides, that progress should be reported, and that the committee should sit again on Tuesday.