§ Sir C. Pole,pursuant to notice, rose to submit his motion to the house, founded upon the 14th Report of the commissioners of Naval Inquiry. The object of the bill, which he had to propose, was to carry into effect, both the spirit and letter of the charter of Greenwich Hospital. Before he proceeded to make his motion, he begged that the report of the commissioners, who had been appointed on a former occasion to inquire into the state of that hospital, should be read. By the charter of the hospital, which was granted in the 16th Geo. iii. it was required, that all the officers of the hospital should be persons who had served his majesty in the navy, and had lost limbs or been disabled in the service. The provisions of the charter it appeared had not been complied with; but it was not the object of his bill to interfere with any of the existing appointments, or emoluments; its sole purpose being to provide that the charter should in future be complied with both in letter and in spirit. Another part of his bill would provide for a public saving, by requiring persons holding such offices to give up their half pay. His bill was also to extend to the institution of the Naval Asylum. which had been established for the encouragement of the naval service, and if ever there had been a time when they ought to do every thing consistent with economy and the interest of the service for that object, it was the present. These were the 977 clauses which he intended to introduce into this bill, and there was also another, to provide that the bill should not extend to any persons holding offices at this moment either in the Naval Asylum or Greenwich Hospital, though it was to provide, that in future no persons but such as had served a certain number of years in the navy, or been disabled in the service, should hold any office in either establishment. It had also been his intention to introduce a clause to provide that all sums granted for the use of Greenwich Hospital, should be paid into the bank of England; but as he understood that regulations were to be adopted, which would render that clause unnecessary, he should not press it. He therefore moved for leave to bring in a Bill for the encouragement of his majesty's Naval Service, by regulating the appointment to Officers in the Naval Assylum, and in Greenwich Hospital.
Mr. Rosestated, that immediately after his appointment to the office he then held, he had inquired into the facts stated in the report of the Commissioners of Naval Inquiry, and that in consequence of the representations made by him to the admiralty, prosecutions were now carrying on against, the persons who had been guilty of malversation in that department. But having said this, he did not think that the hon. baronet had made out any case to induce the house to accede to his motion. About, 30 years ago, an inquiry had been made into the state and management of Greenwich Hospital, but no legislative enactment was thought necessary. There were various offices, such as that of organist, surveyor, and architect, which persons of naval education would not be competent to fill. The auditor was an officer who required a competent skill in the law. The noble lord who now held that office had succeeded lord Thurlow, who must be allowed to have been skilled in the law. Besides, the revenues of the hospital exceeded 160,000l. per annum, and the receiver would require other qualifications than a naval education. As to the question respecting the Naval Asylum, he thought that the hon. baronet would do well to wait for the Report from the commissioners on that head. He was as desirous as any person that none but those who had served in the navy, should be employed in the offices of that institution, for which they would be qualified; and if, when the regulations of the commissioners 978 should be produced the hon. baronet should not be satisfied with them, it would, be perfectly competent to him to move for such a measure as the present.
§ Mr. Whitbreadwas of opinion, that many musical persons where disabled in the navy, who might be competent to the office of organist; and observed, that the right hon. gent. who had just sat down, and another gentleman, a member of that house, were proofs that a naval education did not render persons unfit for such offices as those he had mentioned. At any rate seafaring men might hold sinecure offices as well as any other description of persons, and it appeared that the barber of the hospital, Mr. Henry Clew, a Swiss, employed six deputies, and derived an income of 150l. per annum from his office, without having any duty to perform, but the superintendance of the shaving of The pensioners. He highly praised the labours of the naval commissioners, and of the hon. baronet in particular, and he was decidedly of opinion, that no person should be allowed to hold any office in either the Naval Asylum, or Greenwich Hospital, who was not a seafaring man.
Mr. Lockhartregretted that the hon. baronet had connected the two establishments, which were so different in their object and nature. The Naval Asylum had been instituted by public spirited persons, as strongly attached to the naval service as the hon. baronet, who had subscribed a sum of 50,000l. for the establishment. The proposal of the hon. baronet went to shew a distrust that men having acted under such motives, would not make regulations for its management in the same spirit. Such distrust might excite discontent in the navy, and a lukewarmness in those who had originated and promoted the institution. The commissioners were composed of 17 gentlemen of the navy, and 11 who had not been of that profession. The latter could not dictate any thing inimical to the interests of the navy, and, he therefore thought that those who had framed the institution in favour of the navy, should not be deprived of their influence upon it by the vote of the hon. baronet.
Mr. Ponsonbyobserved, that the arguments employed applied only to that part of the motion which concerned the Naval Asylum, and not against that which applied to the carrying into effect the charter of Greenwich Hospital. That charter bad, it appeared, been departed 979 from, and therefore there was a necessity for the interference of parliament. He suggested, therefore, to the hon. bart. whether he ought not to separate the objects of his bill, and move, in the first instance, for a bill to regulate Greenwich Hospital; and afterwards, if it should be necessary, bring forward a motion for a bill to regulate the Naval Asylum.
§ Sir C. Poleacceded to the suggestion of the right. hon. gent. and confined his motion to the first object.
The Chancellor of the Exchequeras the question had been narrowed, should then only say, with respect to the Naval Asylum, that it would be competent to the hon. baronet to move an address to his majesty for the Regulations of the Commissioners, and to make them the subject of any further proceeding he might think necessary. But as to the remaining part, of his motion, he did not think the house could agree to it, without having the charter of the hospital before it. It was as much the duty of the trustees, under the charter, to correct any abuses that might exist, as it would if an act of parliament were to pass for the purpose. But the question was, whether it would be desirable, if only a single candidate, who had been connected with the navy, should offer for an office, who might not be as well qualified as other candidates, that any peremptory order for his appointment should be enacted. He contended that there was no necessity for an act of parliament. The hon. bart. himself had been whilst in the office of a lord of the admiralty, in a situation to correct these abuses, and if he had not done so, it was not matter of blame to him, as he had followed the course pursued by his predecessors, and if any mischief had arisen, it must have been only from inadvertency on his part. The house he was sure would not accede to the motion, until it should have the charter of the Hospital before it.
§ Sir John Newportcontended, that every statement of the right hon. gent. shewed the necessity of the bill. As abuses existed, it was highly necessary that an act of parliament should be made to correct them. And many of the trustees would be glad to be protected against the applications of their friends by the provisions of an act of parliament. The hon. baronet appeared to him to deserve the thanks of the house and of the country, for his accurate attention to the interests of a profession to which he was an ornament; and as to the 980 unfitness of naval men for the offices in the Hospital, he never could forget that the late lord chancellor had been in that profession.
Mr. M. Montaguestated, from his local and personal knowledge of an estate belonging to the Hospital, that no naval man, unless locally acquainted with the circumstances and nature of the property, could he capable of conducting or managing it for the interests of the hospital.
§ Mr. Pole Carewcontended, that either there were rules in the charter, requiring persons holding offices to be seafaring men, or there were not; and that in either case, it would be necessary for the house to interfere, to allow qualified persons to be appointed, or to prevent persons not qualified from being appointed.
§ Sir John Ordcould not agree to the motion, as he thought it could neither be consistent with justice nor promote the advantages of the institution, to take it out of the hands of the trustees.
Sir F. Burdettwas extremely surprised at the opposition given to this bill, which was to remedy gross abuses acknowledged to be existing. All that had been said applied solely to the bill, the exceptionable parts of which, if any, might be left out. The principal object he had in rising, was to thank the hon. baronet for the course he was pursuing in spite of all obstacles. He could not suppose that the house could object to the introduction of the bill, because no negative had been given to the statement of the hon. baronet. He never had been more astonished, than at the frivolous objections which had been made to the motion. The object of the bill was to inflict a penalty on those who should violate the provisions of the charter, and he did hope, that the house would never come to any determination that would preclude the hon. baronet from bringing forward his bill.—A division then took place, For the motion, 52. Against it, 78. Majority, 26.