HC Deb 29 June 1808 vol 11 cc1098-102
Mr. Bankes

presented from the bar the Third Report of the Committee of Finance. On the report having been read, the hon. gent. rose to move that it do lie on the table, but before he should make that proposition, he felt it necessary to address an observation or two to the house. He hoped that gentlemen would not be alarmed at the enormous mass of papers which he had brought up, because under the instructions which had been given to the committee, he had conceived it necessary to communicate all the returns upon which the Report of the committee was founded. Only a small part, however, of the papers before the house, would be necessary to be printed, and he trusted, from the part he had taken in the discussions respecting the printing of papers, that the house would give him credit for not wishing to have more printed I than were absolutely necessary to put the house in possession of the subject. It was only a small part therefore of the papers which he had brought that he should move to be printed. On presenting a Report, which had occupied so large a portion of the attention of the committee, he was afraid that the house might suppose that much time had been lost in preparing it. But he could say, as well for himself, as on the part of the other members of the committee, that they had not been wanting in their duty. The delay, and that of some months, in presenting the Report, had arisen from the contrariety of opinion which had taken place in the committee, owing perhaps to its being composed of too numerous an assemblage of members. If it should be the pleasure of the house, that the committee should be renewed in another session, it would be a question. founded upon the experience of the present session, whether it ought to be composed of so large a number. Though this was the only Report which the committee had presented in the present session, he-assured the house that they had attended to other subjects, upon which they had made some progress, though under the instruction given to them by the house, they had looked upon themselves as bound to suspend such inquiries in order to make up this Report. They had made progress in the business relating to the Pay office, and the War office accounts; but as these subjects were also under the consideration of the commissioners, they deemed it expedient to wait the these commissioners should make a Report upon these heads, a report which had been presented only on Saturday last. As to the report which the Committee of Finance now made to the house, he had only to say, that it was less satisfactory to himself, than the report which a few days since he had hoped to lay upon the table of the house; and if gentlemen should be disappointed by its contents, he could assure them he had expected a few days since to have presented a report in a shape which was consistent with his own wishes. Some alterations, however, had been made in passages of that report, and some omissions; but he did not mean to complain of that. It might have arisen from a smaller number of the members having attended towards the close of the session, than in the earlier part of it, when the original form of the report had been agreed to. Such a circumstance was incidental to all large assemblies, and without complaining of it, he stated the fact only for the guidance of the house, when the question concerning the revival of the committee should come under their consideration. Whatever might be thought of the report which he had presented, he had acted under a sanction of the majority of the committee present when it was finally voted. Upon the whole, however, it would be found to contain much useful information, and many suggestions that would be productive of public good. At all events, he was happy that this part of the labours of the committee had been brought to a termination. The hon. gent, then concluded by moving, that the Report do lie on the table, and be printed.

Mr. Leycester

coincided with the hon. gentleman in every thing he had asserted, with respect to the assiduity with which the hon. gentleman and the other mem- bers of the committee, had discharged the trust committed to them. He should have confined himself to this Corroboration of the statement of the hon. chairman of the committee, if he had not felt it necessary from what had fallen from him on other topics, to add a few observations in order to obviate any misconception with regard to what had passed in the committee. The hon. gentleman had stated, that some passages of the original report prepared by him had been altered, and another left out. As to the alterations, he should observe, that when the report had been first proposed to the committee, most important differences prevailed respecting several passages in it, and one passage had been carried in that instance only by a majority of one. Upon that occasion, notice had been given, that, on the second reading of the report, a stage understood on all hands to be designed for a revision of the report, an alteration would be proposed. Some alterations were on that occasion carried by a small, others by a great majority of the committee, and others again unanimously, and this at a meeting called by the chairman in the regular way, and acceded to by those present when the adjournment of the proceedings was proposed. At a meeting so adjourned, the amendment to which the hon. gentleman had alluded, had been carried. The other passage to which the hon. gentleman had alluded had been left out of the report. From the importance which the honourable member attached to these passages, the house might suppose that they were of very great consequence, and from what had been insinuated out of doors, it would seem as if the committee was disposed to screen public delinquents. But the house would be surprised when he explained to them the real state of the case. The original report stated, if not in terms, at least in substance, that all sinecure places ought to be abolished, with few exceptions; and the amendment was, that the emoluments of some sinecure places ought to be diminished, and that others should be abolished. When he stated this he was convinced that the house would not consider the difference of such importance, nor that much weight was to be attached to the circumstance of the original passage having been in the first instance carried by a majority of one. The house was left in the same situation with respect to the course it might think proper to pursue, by the amendment as by the original passage, be- cause no definite line was pointed out in either, and it remained for the house eventually to determine for itself. As to the other passage, to which, as having been left out, the hon. gent, had alluded, he rather thought that it was the passage which related to the increase of the influence of the crown. One objection to that passage was, that whilst it enumerated all the circumstances which had increased the influence of the crown, it omitted those by which the influence of the crown had been diminished. It was his opinion, at least, that if that subject were to be introduced at all into the report, all the circumstances on both sides ought to have been noticed. But there was a still stronger objection to the passage. The object of the appointment of the committee was, not to inquire into the increase or diminution of the influence of the crown, but to investigate the circumstances of the public expenditure, and to report how far public money might be saved in that expenditure. He was sorry to take up the time of the house between the merits of the original report and the alterations which had been made in it. But he should be glad if every amendment that had been proposed, and every question that had been discussed in the committee, were before the house, and he was confident that the house would concur in every alteration which had been made.

Mr. H. Thornton

was anxious that this subject should be fully explained to the house. He had risen to support the statement that had been made by the chairman of tile committee, and to prevent any improper impression being made by the statement of the learned gentleman who had just sat down. That learned gentleman seemed to think, that the difference between the passages of the original report and the alterations made in it, was wholly unimportant, whereas, for his own part, he thought it by no means trifling or unimportant. As the report stood a week ago, it expressed a wish to retain those sinecure places which were necessary to the dignity of the crown, and went on to state, that the remainder, with few exceptions, ought to be abolished. In this passage, the committee expressed a decided opinion upon the principle of sinecures. It recognized the principle of the former finance committee in reserving these sinecures, which would be the remuneration of great public services, and for which, if not reserved, a provision should be substi- tuted out of the public funds of the country, whilst at the same time it asserted a principle against sinecures in general.—The amendment, on the contrary, stated only that some sinecures ought to be retrenched, and others abolished, without containing any opinion against the general principle of sinecure places. As to the other passage which had been alluded to, that was not of so much consequence. The increase of the influence of the crown had only been introduced to meet an argument against retrenchment, that would lessen that influence, by shewing that if it should be diminished by such retrenchment, it had been increased in other respects.—The Report was then ordered to lie on the table. On the motion for its being printed,

Mr. Horner

said, he should be glad to know precisely what parts were intended to be printed, and what to be left out. It seemed now doubly necessary from the account they had just heard of the difference of opinion in the Committee, that the house should have as much as possible before them, in order to be able to form a judgment for themselves.

Mr. Bankes

replied, that whatever difference of opinion there might have been on other subjects, there had been none as to the selection of the particular documents necessary to be printed along with the report. Every information would be before the house, and a catalogue of the papers not required to be printed, but which were laid on the table, would be added, so that those papers might at any time be referred to for particulars.