COMMUTATION OF TYTHES IN IRELAND. (Hansard, 16 June 1808)

Mr. M. Fitzgerald
, (knight of Kerry) in what he was about to say, disclaimed all idea of any wish to embarrass government. In at all touching on this subject, he was anxious chiefly for two things; first, that ministers should not suppose, from the paucity of petitions, that the question was not one of very general interest in Ireland, or which they were on that account entitled to undervalue; secondly, he was anxious to prevent the people of Ireland from feeling any thing like distrust in those who were to bring forward these petitions. He felt himself bound to refute the calumnies which had been propagated, alleging that the disturbances in his county had been occasioned by the meeting to consider of the petition in question. It might be sufficient, in answer to this calumny, to state, that these disturbances had existed for years before, and that, after the meeting to consider of the Commutation of Tythes, they had abated rather than increased. The same he could also state as to other petitions. Another stigma attempted to be fixed on the favourers of this measure was, that an improper advantage was sought to be got for the land owners, at the expence of the church. For his part, he disclaimed every idea of the kind. He wished that the church and clergy should have their rights preserved entire; but that the present mode of levying the tythes should be commuted for one more equal and less burthensome. This was no catholic question; it did not partake of a religious feeling; it was supported by the county of Armagh, than which no county in Ireland was more, or rather so completely, protestant. It was a measure wished for by all classes, and even by the protestant clergy. He did not pretend to say that the petitions were so numerous as to entitle him to allege that it was at the moment a measure of necessity; therefore he should not urge referring the petition to a 909 committee at present. He left it with ministers, assuring them that the commutation of tythes was necessary, and that no time was to be lost, after the commencement of the next session of parliament, in bringing it forward. He then moved, that the petition from the county of Kerry be referred to a committee of the whole house.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer
availed himself of the opportunity afforded him by the right hon. gent.'s motion, distinctly to state that it was the intention of his majesty's government seriously to consider this business, of the importance of which they were completely convinced. He had already paid considerable attention to it himself, but he regretted to observe, that the further he went into the examination, the more arduous did the task appear, and that the undertaking of applying a remedy to the evil, appeared to be beset with difficulties almost insurmountable. He repeated, however, that every effort should be made to remove them.

§ Mr. Parnell
expressed his satisfaction at the sentiments which the house had just heard from the right hon. gentleman.

Mr. Ponsonby
considered this to be a question of importance to the well-being of Ireland. Any new mode of levying the tithes did, indeed, present numberless obstacles: he hoped, however, they were not insurmountable, but such as might be overcome to the satisfaction of all parties by time and patience. He reposed all confidence in government that every means would be adopted to accomplish this object.

§ General Mathew
stated, that he held in his hand a Petition on the subject from the county of Tipperary, but that after what had fallen from the right hon. gent. he should refrain from presenting it.

§ Sir G. Hill
was anxious to know whether or not his majesty's government intended to take into their consideration the commutation of tithes in England as well as in Ireland. He deprecated any interference on this point in the one country which did not extend to the other.

Mr. Herbert
recommended, in strong terms, the measure of a commutation, which he was convinced would not be attended with any insuperable difficulty, and which he was satisfied would be as acceptable to the clergy as to the laity. He knew several instances in which clergymen had declared to him that they would be willing to abate a sixth of their clerical revenue, if it could be collected with more facility, 910 and in a manner less repugnant to their feelings.

§ Mr. Burton
was by no means of opinion that this was an easy subject. In that part of England, where for many years he had been engaged in the discharge of his professional duties, the adjustment of tithes had ever been attended with more complication and difficulty than any other matter which had fallen under his notice; and he had just been told by an hon. friend near him, that in the county of Devon a very vigorous attempt which had been made to arrange the commutation of tithes had been abandoned, on the experience of the impossibility of success.

§ Mr. Sheridan
trusted that the people of Ireland would not relax in their petitions to parliament on this subject, fully convinced as he was that whatever might be said by his majesty's government, it was to parliament alone that eventually they must look for redress. He completely differed from the hon. and learned gent. who had just spoken, with respect to the nature of the difficulties by which this subject was surrounded. In his opinion they were difficulties which a little attention might obviate. In cases of inclosure they were obviated at present, and he could not conceive why the principles which applied to inclosures might not be generally diffused over the whole system of the country. While he was on his legs he would say a few words on a subject in which he was more personally concerned. At the close of the last session of parliament, in consequence of the passing of two bills, which as they were now legislative acts, he would not characterise in the terms of abhorrence which justly belonged to them, he had given a solemn notice of his intention early in the present session of parliament, to move for a committee to examine the general state of Ireland. On the meeting of parliament, however, he had been induced by the recommendation of those to whose advice he must ever listen with deference on all subjects, and more especially on every thing which related to Ireland, to postpone his motion until after the discussion of the Catholic Petition; a discussion, the good effects of which on the general feeling of the house and of the country, were very plainly discernible. Since that discussion he had been induced still further to delay his motion by various motives, of which the approaching consideration of the subject immediately before the house, was one of the 911 most weighty; and as that had been postponed until so late a period, he should abandon all intention of bringing forward his motion during the present session.

Mr. Ponsonby
thanked his right hon. friend for his condescension; stating that he had made the application, from an unwillingness again so suddenly to agitate a question which, so far from tranquillizing the people of Ireland, must have had a contrary effect.