§ The house having resolved itself into a committee of Ways and Means,
Mr. Foster,after observing that he would detain the house but a very short time, briefly stated, under the various heads, the sums required in Ireland for the service of the year 1808, amounting in all to 9,767,550l. Irish currency; remarking that this was a very large sum for that country. To meet this he enumerated various items, viz. the Ordinary Revenue 4,800,000l.; the loan contracted in England for the service of Ireland, 2,708,332l.; the loan to be granted by the Bank of Ireland for the renewal of their charter, 1,250,000l.; the loan contracted in Ireland, 750,000l. &c. making together the sum of 9,767,550l. Irish currency.—With respect to the loan contracted for in Ireland, it had been contracted for in the three and a half per cents, and at an interest not exceeding that on the loan raised in Great Britain, viz. 4l. 14s. 6d. per cent. The charges per annum of the interest and sinking fund on the three loans would be as follows:
In order to raise this sum, it would be necessary to impose new Taxes, and he trusted the committee would concur with him in opinion, that it would be better to effect this not by imposing a number of small taxes, but rather to lay on a large tax at once, in such a way as would least affect the community in Ireland. It was well known that in Ireland, as well as in England, the distilleries evaded the malt duties in a considerable degree, by distilling from raw corn; he therefore proposed to extend to all raw corn used in distillation, the duties at present imposed upon malt. It was also his intention to propose an additional duty on foreign spirits im- 830 ported into Ireland. These sums, together with the saving in the management of the Debt, would more than cover the Charges of the Interest, and Sinking Fund of the three Loans, viz.:
The Loan raised in Ireland £45,562 The Bank, of Ireland Loan 75,000 The Loan raised in England 159,000 Total 280,462 There were certain arrangements dependent on the measure now before parliament, relative to the Distillation from Sugar, with which he would not then trouble the committee.
Extension of the Malt Duties to raw Corn, &c £333,000 Duty on Foreign Spirits 22,500 Savings in the Management of the Public Debt 7,500 Total 363,000 He then moved a variety of Resolutions, correspondent to his statement, which were 831 agreed to.—A short discussion then took place on the terms of the Irish Bank Loan, which were strongly defended by Mr. Foster. Upon which,
GENERAL RECAPITULATION. LOAN FOR IRELAND. Irish Money. Interest and Sinking Fund. 2,703,332 borrowed in England £.159,904 2,000,000 borrowed in Ireland 120,562 4,708,332 Annual Charge £.280,466 Ways and Means for raising the said Charge. 1s. 8d. per gallon on Spirits home made on 6,000,000 gallons. £.500,000 Deduct one third for Malt 166,666 333,334 Duties on Imported Spirits 400,000 gallons, at 13d. one-third per gallon. 22,500 Saving on Bank Management 7,500 £.363,334 Deduct charge as above 280,466 Surplus 82,868 Charge on 5th Jan. 1808. Unfunded Dept 29,557 Treasury Bills 400,000 Remains due to Inland Canals 215,484 Howth Harbour 6,000 First Fruits 50,000 Other Articles 200,000 £.901,041 Discharge. Loan unapplied 871,999 Balance in Exchequer, Jan. 5, 1808 298,115 1,170,134 Deduct Charge, as above 901,041 Surplus to be carried to Ways and Means for 1808 £.259,093 Interest and Sinking Fund of Dept 3,409,992 Quota of Expence for the Year (5,868,515 Brit.). 6,337,558 9,767,550 Annual Means for 1808. Revenues and Extraordinary Resource 4,800,000 Loan raised in Ireland 2,000,000 Great Britain 2,708,332 Supplies as above 259,093 £.9,767,425
§ Mr. Parnellobserved, that he could not agree in opinion with the right hon. gent. (Mr. Foster), that the Loan for 1,250,000l. which he had negociated with the Bank of Ireland, was entitled to those terms of approbation which he had bestowed upon it. On the contrary, he considered it as one highly disadvantageous to the public. For, if the right hon. gent. had borrowed this sum in London, instead of the public having to pay an interest at the rate of 5l. per cent, they would only have had to pay 4l. 14l. 6d. the rate at which the Chancellor of the Exchequer of this country, a few days ago, made the loan for England. On this sum of 1,250,000l. the annual difference in the amount of interest between the two rates is no less than 3,438l. so that the public will actually sustain an annual loss to this amount, because this loan has been borrowed from the Bank of Ireland, and not in the usual course, in London, and at the same time with the money wanting for the services of England.—With respect to the other conditions on which the Charter of the Bank is to be renewed, they were by no means such conditions as ought to be acceded to, as a sufficient consideration for so valuable a concession as the renewal of the Charter. The security which the renewal will afford to the Bank for so many years of the great advantages which it enjoys from its exclusive rights in the Banking Trade, should have obtained for the public much more advantageous terms. As to the Bank's agreeing to manage the public debt gratis, and thus to surrender a claim on the public of about 7,000l. per annum, this is in fact a transaction unfavourable to the public, if at the same time it is to be understood that the Bank are to make no allowance to the public for the balances of public money which he in their hands. These balances amount, on an average, to a sum of 300,000l. and according to the principles laid down in the report of the Committee of Finance, the public have a just claim to be allowed 5l. per cent, on this sum—but instead of any such allowance being a part of the terms entered into with the Bank, no mention is made of these balances, and therefore, in the place of the public being benefited by a sum of 7,000l. per ann. on account of no charge being made for managing the public debt, 832 they lose 7,000l. being the difference between 15,000l. (which the public have a right to receive on the balances of 300,000l.), and 7,000l. which the Bank have a right to for managing the dept.— In answer to what has been said respecting the favour which the Bank has conferred on the public by lending to them this sum of 1,250,000l. the hon. member maintained, that each subscriber to this loan will be able to sell his share, immediately upon the bill being passed into a law, for a premium of 20 or 30 per cent. or even more. For if, upon a capital of 1,500,000l. the Bank have been hitherto able for several years, to divide a profit of 7 per cent, and a bonus of 5 per cent, in each year, and if the renewal of the Charter secures to them the continuance of all those means by which they have hitherto made these profits, the addition of one million to their former capital of one million and an half, cannot possibly contribute to lower the rate of profit on which the Bank transact their business; but must inevitably have the operation, that an encreased capital has, in all commercial transactions, to securing, and even augmenting this rate of profit. As to the praise which has been given to the Bank for their liberality in discounting at 1l. per cent, below the legal rate of interest, and their claim to the gratitude of the house on this account, he said it was necessary only to observe, that all the bankers of Dublin, one only excepted, discount at the same rate, and that it is not a fair way of judging how far this is a liberal practice or not, by referring it to the law which fixes the rate of interest, because the only just criterion of judgment is the value of money in the market; and when the public loans and the prices of public securities shew that the value of money is not even 5l. per cent, it cannot be urged that the Bank confer any very great favour on the public, when they discount at this rate.—But the great objection which he entertained to the bargain which has been made with the Bank by government, he said, arose from a conviction of the impolicy of renewing the Charter so long as the restriction of cash payments continues, for so long as the Bank are relieved from the necessity of paying their notes in specie, they are at liberty to issue any quantity of them they think proper, and to give the Bank of Ireland any greater powers in this respect, or to relieve them from the control which parliament possesses 833 over them, in consequence of the short period their present charter has to run, is a most unwise proceeding; because it cannot be forgotten, that it is not long ago since their paper was depreciated in its value full 10 per cent., and because there is a Report of a committee of this house, in which it is proved, that this depreciation was the cause of the high rates of exchange which, for a few years, existed between England and Ireland. He wished therefore to see this house keeping in its own hands the controul that the power of granting or refusing a renewal of the charter, gives it over the Bank; and with such ample experience of the ill effects of an excessive issue of paper, to act with all due caution in acceding to the terms which have been entered into between the bank and the right hon. gentleman.
§ Sir J. Newportinquired into the state of the Collectors Balances. Last year they had increased 60,0001. He did not attach blame to this circumstance, but he wished to know what prospect there was of their being reduced.
Mr. Fosterreplied, that every regulation on that subject had been hitherto enforced without effect. All possible steps were now taking to reduce the balances, and he had great hopes that before the next meeting of parliament that object would be in a great measure accomplished.—The house having resumed, the report was ordered to be received to-morrow.