§ Mr. Creeveyrose, pursuant to notice, to move for a copy of an exposition of the Affairs of the East India company, which had been laid before the committee by the directors. A Report had been already presented to the house by the East India committee, upon which a grant of money to the company was to be moved. His object was to have this paper before the house, in order that when gentlemen came to vote on the question, they might be as well informed upon the subject as the committee. The hon. member stated 805 that the first thing done by the committee I was to call for a general statement of the Affairs of the Company from the directors. An Exposition had accordingly been given in, presenting a view, gloomy enough, of their situation. When the committee came to consider what security the company could give for any loan to be advanced to them, it was thought best that they should present a petition to parliament, to be by the house referred to the committee. A Petition was accordingly presented (see p. 68); but in it they had forgot all their distresses. They put off their Indian debt in a parenthesis, and made out a surplus at home of eight millions. This was referred to the committee, and what he complained of was, that they had adopted the Petition as the ground of the report, and not the Exposition. Delusive, therefore, as the Indian budgets had been, they were nothing to the delusion of this report. The hon. member observed, that he could see no good reason for refusing to produce this report, although he could conceive that many of the members of the committee would not much relish the idea of its being made public. The friends of lord Melville and of marquis Wellesley could not, perhaps, much desire to produce a paper in which the directors ascribed their distress to the Board of Controul constituted in 1784, and to the Mahratta war. Still, however, before the house could justly vote away the public money to the company, they ought to have every possible knowledge of their affairs, and therefore he moved for this document.
§ Mr. R. Dundassaid, that the objection to the production of the paper, had been merely a question of time. The Exposition related principally to the state of the company's affairs abroad. The Report related to their affairs at home. The committee, therefore, with the exception of the hon. gent, had thought it better to delay the production of the Exposition till the second report, where those matters would be treated to which it related. He denied that any delusions had been held out, but said that the predictions of lord Melville and his noble friend near him (lord Castlereagh) were justified by the then situation of the company, and had only failed from circumstances which they could not foresee.
§ Lord A. Hamiltonobserved, that the question was, whether any proposition for a loan to the East India company was to 806 be made in the mean time. If there was, then the document would come a great deal too late if it only accompanied the second report. Unless, then, he had some guarantee, first, that the paper would be laid before the house at no very distant period, and, next, that no proposition for a loan should be made in the mean time, he must certainly vote for the motion of his hon. friend.
§ Mr. R. Dundassaid, that he meant to move to-morrow s'ennight, in a committee of ways and means, the balance due from the public to the company.
§ Mr. Wilberforcestated, that he had agreed with the majority of the committee, that it was best to defer presenting the Exposition, till they reported on the subject to which it chiefly related: erroneous speculations might be formed upon that document, both in and out of the house, if it should be laid on the table without the observations of the committee.
§ Mr. Windhamsaid, that this was a good answer as far as the committee was concerned. But the question for the house to consider was, whether they were to vote a grant of money to the Company without having an opportunity of examining this exposition of their affairs?
The Chancellor of the Exchequerobserved, that at all events the motion was premature, as the report was not printed, and the house could not know what was proposed in it. If nothing should appear in that report but that we should pay our debts, the paper would not be necessary with a view to that question. This, therefore, was not the time for the house to decide whether the committee had done wrong or not in withholding that paper for the present.
Lord Folkestoneunderstood, that the president of the board of controul intended to propose in the first place, no more than the payment of what were called our debts. In that case the production of the paper would not be so necessary. But yet the Report proposed, that a large sum over and above those debts should be granted to the company. At all events, it was proper, that the house should have every information on the subject as soon as possible; and as there could be no real objection to the production of this paper, he should vote for its being laid immediately on the table.
§ Sir J. Anstruthersaid, that the house did not know whether the paper related to the report or not. If any member, after 807 the report was examined, should think that the committee had reported short on any subject of which it treated, then would be the time for the motion for additional documents. He admitted that the paper in question must be produced when the committee reported on the matters to which it related; but there was no occasion to lay it, till then, before the house.
§ Mr. Tierneyobserved, that every facility had been afforded to his hon. friend to procure all the evidence with respect to the home affairs of the company; and if no more evidence was produced, it was his hon. friend's fault. It was rather unfair, therefore, to hold up the committee to the public as desirous to conceal the situation of the company. He disclaimed any such intention. The Report related to the home affairs; and if he had been in the committee at the time, he certainly would have voted with the majority for withholding that paper for the present, as having no relation to the matters contained in the report. If what had been decided by the committee as debt was alone to be proposed upon that report, there could be no use for the document; but, if any assistance was intended to be voted in the first instance, then, however hard on the company it might be, he would assent to the production of the paper. He did not wish to gloss over the affairs of the company; neither did he wish to prejudice the public against them. They were entitled to justice. They had exposed their affairs very fairly; and all the members of that committee were most anxious to find out and state the exact and fair truth on this subject.
Mr. Ponsonbyadmitted, that the best way of proceeding would be, in the first instance to clear all our debts to the company if any were due, and then to examine into the general state of their affairs. If it was, therefore, to be understood that nothing further was to be proposed by the hon. president of the board of controul in the committee of ways and means, except a liquidation of the debt, he thought his hon. friend might suffer himself to be prevailed upon to withdraw his motion for the present.
§ Mr. Creeveyobserved, that he would never retract what he might at any time have said respecting the committee, but still maintained that it was improperly constituted. He would watch over their proceedings, however, in whatever manner he thought proper. The report consisted of 808 two parts; the one of debt, the other of loan. With regard to the latter point, the paper he moved for was very essential; and it was the more necessary to have it at present, since the answer of the hon. president to the question, whether he meant to propose only a liquidation of the debt, or a loan together with that, had been evasive. There was something, however, in what the chancellor of the exchequer had said as to the report not being as yet known to the house; and on that account he would withdraw his motion, meaning to repeat it if any loan was to be proposed in the interval between the first and second report.
§ Mr. R. Dundassaid, that he only meant in the first instance to propose a liquidation of the debt.
§ Mr. R. Thorntonreprobated the language held by Mr. Creevey, that the East India Company were bankrupts; and contended that while the committee was composed of men perfectly competent to examine into the state of the company's affairs, the conduct of the hon. gent. this evening, was such as to detract much from the weight of any observations which he might in future make upon the report when it was made.—The motion was accordingly withdrawn.