§ Mr. Hobhousebrought up the report of the committee on the mutiny bill A desultory conversation ensued on the various clauses, in which Mr. Bastard, the Secretary at War, Mr. Windham, colonel Wood, Mr. Yorke, Mr. Canning, and sir John Doyle participated. All the clauses were eventually agreed to.—On the Speaker's inquiry, whether any amendments were proposed to be made in the body of the bill,
Lord Castlereagh rose .He considered the system of the right hon. secretary for the war department as too complicated to effect its own purpose. In the papers on the table was a case which satisfied his own mind that that system was wholly inadequate to maintain the necessary present force, and was calculated to involve the country in future hazard, unless some modification of it, such as that which it was his intention to propose, should be adopted by parliament. He contended, that since the defence of the country had been entrusted to the right hon. gent., it had been materially deteriorated. Indeed, the right hon. gent. seemed to admit that the home defence was inadequate to its object; for otherwise, after having blamed the predecessors of the 102 present administration for not having assisted the continent, he would hardly have abstained from making a single exertion to co-operate with our allies, or to prevent the French from carrying their troops from the Coast to the Vistula. Nothing had been done, with the exception of that enormous subsidy of £80,000 to Prussia, for which his majesty's ministers had even thought necessary to apologise. Fifteen or twenty thousand men had been sent on distant foreign service, and by that means the home defence had been much weakened. The volunteers also, that right arm of the public force, had been withered under the right hon. gent's superintendance; and with respect to the Training bill, which was to bear down all before it, from the day that that bill had passed, nothing had been done, but making out the lists and apportionments, though a whole twelve-month had elapsed. For all this deduction from the home defence, we might be consoled, if the body of the force detached abroad had been sent on objects of real importance; but here the right hon. gent. was equally unfortunate. At that moment, 20,000 men, the flower of the British army, were locked up in Sicily, remote from every thing that it was the interest of the country to endeavour to acquire. The conduct of his majesty's ministers, with regard to South America, had been equally vacillating, and equally unwise; not a step had been taken by them till the negotiation at Paris had terminated. The noble lord animadverted with severity on the expedition under colonel Craufurd, of whose destination, he believed ministers themselves had no clear conception. With regard to the modification which he meant to propose, it was clear that the right hon. gent. could not allege that his measure had been adequate to the immediate necessities of the country; and if not so, it would be much less adequate to the waste which his system contained within itself; a waste, doubling the usual casualties of the army. The modifications he proposed would not, however, prevent the continuation of the right hon. gent's experiment; it went merely to allow those recruits who wished to do so, to enlist for life instead of a limited period, thus counteracting the dangerous effects of the existing system. The documents on the table proved, that up to the first of January last, the right hon. gent's plan had riot produced more than was formerly produced by the ordinary recruiting. Since that period, he was happy to find, that the number raised was in- 103 creasing, but this was owing to circumstances applicable to any system, and above all, to the notice given to officers of second battalions, that unless a certain number of men were raised within a limited period, those battalions would be reduced. He compared the right hon. gent's system with the Additional Defence act, and having argued at considerable length, in deprecation of the one, and in defence of the other, concluded by moving, as a proviso to that clause of the bill which related to the administration of oaths to recruits, that if any recruit should declare before a magistrate his intention of enlisting, but not for a limited time, on receiving such bounty as his majesty should think proper to offer, it should be lawful for the magistrate to take his oath for such extended service.
Mr. Secretary Windhamsaid, he was glad to find that the noble lord, though not uniformly, had allowed that his plan had succeeded. The fact was, that the recruiting had increased, and the desertions had diminished. The general force of the country had been augmented, and as to the home defence, unless the enemy were to meet with greater successes than those of which we were at present apprised, it would be some time before any tremendous danger could be apprehended. The noble lord had been perfectly safe in his observations on the expedition under colonel Craufurd, because he knew that it was unlit at present to divulge the object of that expedition. "But," says the noble lord, "why not "harass the enemy in some other place?" Would not this reduce the home defence of which the noble lord was so tenacious? As to activity, an injudicious and imprudent activity was more dangerous than indolence; for in military subjects he could not agree with the French proverb, which said, in the idiom of that language, "It is better to do nothings than nothing." The noble lord cried out for expeditions. What sort of precedents of expeditions had the administration, of which the noble lord had formed a part, afforded? Had not the noble lord, by sending out his expeditions, contrived to drown a great many men in the English channel, and to wreck a great many others on the enemy's coasts? As to the diminution in the energy of the volunteers, their zeal and activity had been called forth by the danger of the country; should the country again be in danger, he had no doubt that that zeal and activity would again be displayed, but at present there was no motive fur their ex- 104 ertions. The noble lord complained, that his (Mr W's) bill had not done what it never professed to do, namely, in seven months to cause an immense increase in the army. A measure intended to produce a regular, permanent, and increasing supply, was, incapable of making a great and sudden accession. He combated the comparison which the noble lord had instituted, between the present military system and the defence bill of the last administration, and contended, in contradiction to the noble lord, that the superiority was greatly on the side of the former. He shewed, from a comparison of the returns, that the produce of the regular recruiting, under the former system, was to the present only in the proportion of 214 men a week to 509. The desertions were under the former system; in the last six months of the year 1805, as 1 to 157; in the last six months of 1806, the proportion was as 1 to 268. The improvement in both these great points continued to increase to the present hour; and in proportion as the new measures began to be better understood, their operation would be more extensive. Their influence was founded on the fixed principles of human nature. It was not by affording the present means of debauchery that he sought to fill the army, but by holding out prospective rewards, to which it was desirable that the minds of the people should be fixed; and, therefore, the amendment of the noble lord was to be deprecated, as going to undermine and unsettle the root they had already taken.
Mr. Rosestated, that calculating the expense of recruiting parties, coupled with the bounty of 18l. it made every man cost the country 38l. by the time they joined. Calculating the increased expense of Chelsea, the expense was not less than 65l. a man. The expense of Chelsea, on the present system, would amount, in time of peace, to between 700,000l. and 1,000,000l. a year.
§ Colonel Shipley ,from his experience in his own regiment, assured the house that recruits were obtained in greater numbers and of better quality; not the debauched outcasts of the manufacturing towns, but the sons of the yeomanry, sent by their fathers to devote a part of their youth to the promotion of the glory of their country, in a war which was maintained for the preservation of the rights of mankind.
Colonel Barrybore testimony to the same satisfactory operation of the new measures with respect to his own regiment.
Sir James Pulteneyrepeated his former arguments against discharging men in the middle of a war. Great mischief would arise from that principle in the colonies, and with all our naval superiority, it would be found extremely difficult to transport the men backwards and forwards, as often as it would be necessary; he thought it unfair to institute a comparison between the ordinary recruiting now, and what it was while the Additional Force act subsisted. It would appear, on examination, that as great a proportion of recruits deserted now as under the former system.
§ Sir John Doyle rose ,amidst a very general call for the question. If he had not been warned to be brief by the lateness of the hour, ha should not be so stupid as not to take the hint gentlemen were so kind as to give him. (a laugh). He was against the amendment, as it went to mix limited and unlimited service. The very objection the gentlemen opposite urged formerly against his right hon. friend's plan was, that it would have this effect; and yet they now brought forward as an amendment a principle which would have the same effect permanently, and in a much greater degree. His right hon. friend's plan had been stigmatized as visionary, theoretic, and quixotic. Its theory was, that by accomodating the service to the feelings and principles of human nature, more men would be obtained, and of a better quality. The theory of the noble lord was, that by making the situation of the soldier worse, and binding him to it for life, he would enter into it more readily, and remain in it more contented. The regiment he had the honour to command had been twice filled up so as to exceed its compliment under the present plan, thought it had at one time sent 250 men, and at another 200 to the first battalion. There was a physical as well as a moral improvement in the quality of the recruits. (Here there was a general coughing, which was stopped by a cry of order!) The hon. Bart. said, he was happy to find that the coughing did not proceed from any indisposition in the health of the house, though it might from an indisposition to hear him (a laugh). The measure produced 500 men a week since January, which was in the proportion of 26,000 a year. If this measure was visionary and quixotic, he wished we had more of such quixotism. The physical superiority of the recruits now detained was evinced by the small proportion rejected; their moral superiority by the reduced number of de- 106 sertions. He was sure, that however cold calculation might anticipate the possibility of the return of a large number of men at the expiration of their periods, leaving our colonial service in a circumstance of great exigency, there would always be found in the bosom of British soldiers a spirit which would never permit them to return to their homes while the service of their country required their service abroad. He cited the instance of a Scotch regiment under Marquis Cornwallis, in India, which, though its period of service had expired, volunteered for an expedition then fitting out, with the exception of two men, who afterwards came back, and begged to be received, but whom the regiment, with a becoming esprit de corps, refused to receive. He also cited the instance of the new regiments raised for service, limited in point of space as well as of time, that volunteered to accompany sir Ralph Abercrombie in his expedition to Egypt, and argued for unlimited service both in time and space, in order to have their offers accepted. He saw all this, and felt and marked it as a proof of national honour, which would never admit a British soldier to avail himself of the expiration of his period of service, in order to retire, when his country should be in want of his arm, but on the contrary would prompt him to renew his engagement and to persevere till the danger was dissipated. Having set out with the intention to be brief, and having received frequent hints from gentlemen to that effect he would now sit down; for, though he had something more to say, he thought he could not leave the house under a better impression than what he had just said was calculated to produce.
§ Mr. Percevalthanked the hon. general for his statement. Though not intended for that purpose, it fully corroborated many of the predictions made by himself and his friends respecting the consequences of the military plan introduced by the right hon. secretary. Frequently had he adverted to the inconveniencies and difficulties that must arise from that plan to the colonial service, from the discharge of men in time of war, &c.; but it would seem that men now crowded so thick to fill up the ranks, that all these inconveniences and difficulties would vanish before the magic operation of the new system. Yet he could not help wishing that the effects of this astonishing bill might be compared with those not only of the recruiting, but also of the parish bill. It would then be seen (and he could 107 prove it even from the papers on the table) that the two months, namely February and March, of the year 1805, exceeded the returns of the two favourite months, set forth as so productive, under the influence of the new system. Even in the last stage of its existence, the parish bill produced 1265 men, a greater number than was now obtained from the full vigour of this new plan. As to the volunteers, that system was acknowledged to be at an end; for the danger of invasion was said to be over, and that alone kept them together. It would therefore appear, even from the confession of the right hon. gent. that those "depositories of pa-"nic" only came forward in the hour of danger; that when danger shewed itself, then it is they flock to their standards. The hon. and learned gent. concluded by adverting to the expedition in which a gallant colonel (Craufurd) had been engaged, who so frequently detained the attention of the house by his observations upon military affairs. He trusted, that to whatever part of the globe he was destined, he carried with him the countenance of ministers. He hoped that his labours would be crowned with success, and that he would not have to report his triumphs to ungrateful masters (hear! hear!). That if he should be fortunate enough to secure for his country as great a conquest as the Cape of Good Hope, he would be at least entitled to the gratitude of this house, or be allowed to wear his hard-earned laurels, without obloquy and reproach(hear! hear!) It was an awful prospect for the country, it was an awful lesson naval and military gentlemen of the house, to reflect, that they were to earn their professional character and fame, by their service within these walls. (Loud cries of hear! hear!)
§ Mr. Windhambegged to ask the learned gent. if he wished to insinuate that the hon. colonel (Craufurd) to whom he had alluded, had obtained his present appointment in consequence of any services he was supposed to have rendered government in that house?
§ Mr. Percevaldisclaimed any such insinuation, and observed, that he must have been wholly misunderstood by the right hon. gent.
§ Mr. Fawkesbegged to be allowed to make a single observation. He did not pretend to know what was the destination of the hon. colonel so strangely alluded to; but whatever might be that destination, he trusted that should that honourable officer disregard his instructions, and divert to any other purpose the force entrusted to him, but that 108 which his orders pointed out, he would be brought to a court-martial, to have his conduct cleared; or otherwise, that he would have to relate his story to "ungrateful masters."
§ Mr. Percevalagain rose to explain, and declared, that he was likewise misunderstood by the hon. gent. who spoke last.—The house then divided on the amendment. For it 60. Against it 179. Majority against it 119. The bill was then ordered to be engrossed.—The second reading of the Roman Catholics' Army Service bill was deferred till Tuesday next, after which the house adjourned.