Mr. Grantmoved the order of the day, for the second reading of the East-India Company's Bonds bill, On the question being put,
§ Mr. Creeveyrose, not to negative the second reading of this bill, but to move that the second reading of it be put off, till the East-India accounts now printing, should be in the hands of members. The house was not in possession of any documents to prove the expediency of agreeing to such a measure. This was the first instance in which that house had been called upon to pass such a measure, without previous enquiry into the grounds upon which it was founded, by having the petition referred to a committee of the house to examine into its allegations. There were at present two budgets in arrear, and the last accounts of the India company, to which the house could resort for information, shewed the affairs of the company to be in a ruinous state. By these accounts it appeared, that there was an excess of above two millions in the company's foreign expenditure over their revenue, and a loss of 2,200,000l. in their trade at home. Under these circumstances, and whilst the company had a debt of seventeen millions at home, payable at the option of the holders, he did not think that parliament would do right to pass this bill without enquiring what means the company had of discharging, as well their former debt, as this new incumbrance. He should therefore, notwithstanding the prospect held out by the hon. director opposite, of a permanent peace, and consequent prosperity of the affairs of the company, move as an amendment, that the bill be read a second time on this day fortnight.
Mr. Grantreplied, that though the hon. member might be actuated by a desire to promote the public interest, he took the wrong course in his speech, for his arguments were founded in ignorance, not in his knowledge of the subject. The sole and simple reason for bringing forward the bill before the India accounts could be brought under the consideration of the house was, that if that course had not been taken, the bill could not be passed this session. The hon. member was aware how difficult it was to prepare the India accounts, so as that they could be presented in a form to be intelligible to the members 834 of that house. He was sorry to find an hon. gent. who had filled the situation lately held by that hon. member, so ignorant of the affairs of the company as to make the assertions he had done. It was true that by the accounts on the table there appeared a deficit at home of above 2,200,000l. which the hon. member had stated to be the amount of the company's loss on their trade, where as it had arisen from the quantity of stores and other articles which were necessarily sent out in consequence of the situation in which the company's settlements were placed. By the plan adopted in 1802 for the liquidation of the company's debt, it had been recommended to send out from Europe considerable quantities of bullion, in order to avoid the necessity of making loans on improvident terms in India. This had been done in 1803, 4, and 5; but the sums and bullion so sent had been applied to the purposes of the wars that then existed, so that no reduction of the debt had taken place. So also, when the system in India had been changed by marquis Cornwallis, considerable sums had been sent out, not for commercial purposes, but for the general expenditure of the presidencies in India. Under these circumstances, the company, though by law authorized to increase their funded stock, had applied to parliament for authority to issue bonds, and this was a much better course for the public, because, if the stock of the company should not be worth any thing, it would be irretrievable to the holders, whereas the bonds might or might not be taken at the option of the individuals who might speculate in such securities. What he had said with respect to the prospect of peace, was founded on the report made by the governor-general, and he was persuaded that the jealousies of the native powers had been extinguished by the conciliating disposition manifested towards them by our government. On all these grounds, he should vote that the bill be now read a second time.
Lord Folkestonedefended the statement of his hon. friend, as to the situation of the East-India company's affairs, and contended for the propriety of deferring the discussion, till the papers now printing should be in the hands of the members. He protested against the implied guarantees that would be given to the security of the bonds, without sufficient investigation of the state of the company's affairs. To issue the bonds without such a guarantee, would be to delude the public.
Lord Howickinsisted upon the propriety of waiting till the documents now printing should be before the house. The importance and extent of the measure to be proposed to-morrow, for the defence of the country, would involve details, which would, in all probability, keep parliament sitting for so long a time, as to allow full opportunity to pass this measure after ample discussion. The state of the East-India company was such, that if the house could not in this session, go into a particular investigation of the company's affairs, it ought at least to pledge itself by a resolution to do so in the next. He expatiated on the declining state of the company's investments and sales; on the increased dangers menacing our Indian possessions from the increased power of Bonaparte, whose hostile designs against our Indian empire were well known. He insisted also on the instability of the peace with the native powers in India. He was of opinion, that those who should advance money on the credit of these bonds would have a claim upon the public, if the company should prove unable to discharge them. [Certainly not, said Mr. Grant,] That was, in his opinion, at least doubtful. If the company could raise the money on its own credit, why did it come to parliament? If the sanction of parliament was necessary, it was in order to give the bonds a credit, which implied a sanction, amounting virtually to a guarantee.
§ Mr. R. Dundasdefended the raising of money upon bonds, in preference to the augmentation of the company's capital, which the company was already by law entitled to make. With respect to the urgency of passing the bill soon, he believed it was strictly a private bill, and must of course be reported this day se'nnight, or fall to the ground. This, however, the house might dispense with. With respect to the state of the company's affairs, though expensive wars had brought on heavy charges, the Indian empire was as little ruined by those heavy charges, as this country was by the heavy wars it had to sustain in Europe. Neither did the failure of commercial speculations in one or two years imply absolute ruin. The West-India merchants also were under difficulties: but nobody thought of saying they were in danger of being ruined. He denied that the passing of this bill amounted to a guarantee on the part of parliament. It might as well be argued, that parliament would 836 be guarantee to the increase of the capital which the company had already power to make by act of parliament.
§ Dr. Laurence ,as a member of parliament, ignorant on this subject, and entitled to information, contended, that no farther proceedings should be had on this measure, without full inspection of such documents as could be had. There would be abundant time for this. It was generally understood that the session could not be terminated in less than five weeks.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerthought it strange, that, as this measure had been agreed to by the late board of controul, it should now be opposed by the secretary to that board (Mr. Creevey). He denied that parliament, in passing the bill, guaranteed the bonds. The present high price of the company's stock, 180 per cent., was a sufficient proof of the company's credit, and the stability of its funds, without the aid of parliament. The present discussion was, at least, a sufficient notice that parliament gave no sanction. The parliament was never supposed to sanction the West-India dock company, or any other private speculating company, when an act was passed, enabling such company to increase its capital. It was allowed on all hands, that the company wanted relief, and this was the best mode of granting that relief.
§ Sir A. Wellesleysupported the measure, and maintained the propriety of proceeding upon it without delay. The company's investments had been fully attended to. The difficulties arose from the state of the continental market, goods to the amount of 7,000,000l. being on hand. The territorial revenue in India, afforded a surplus of 1,000,000l. above the expenditure. The late wars had rendered our empire more secure against any attempt from the native powers.
Lord Morpethrecommended a minute investigation of the company's affairs, with a view to a complete settlement. Temporary arrangements were indeterminate and unsatisfactory.
§ Mr. Lambthought parliament bound to investigate the solvency of the parties to whom it granted power to raise money, and of course responsible in the event of these parties proving insolvent.—The question being put, a division took place,
The bill was accordingly read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Monday.
For reading the bill a 2d time now, 35 Against it 10