HC Deb 14 July 1807 vol 9 cc813-6
Lord H. Petty

moved the order of the day for going into a committee on the bill for the appropriation of the Sinking Fund. He would reserve his observations till he should have heard the sentiments of the right hon. gent. opposite.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer

contended, that it was improper and unnecessary to adopt this measure, or to come to any resolution upon it in the present session. He allowed that great benefit had been derived from the pause in taxation introduced with this measure; but, in considering the further adoption of that repose in any future session, it would be proper to consider how far it was checked by being burthened with an increased Sinking Fund of five per cent. The measure had been already adopted so far as was requisite for the ways and means of this year. What it would be fit to do at a future period, would be best determined by future circumstances. This measure proposed to compel the public creditor to receive an advanced sinking fund on a small part of the debt now, as a consideration for being deprived of the growing accumulation of the whole sinking fund at a future period. By the act of 1792, it was provided, that unless parliament should establish other funds to pay the public debt, at farthest in 45 years, one per cent. should be set aside for that purpose at the Exchequer, so that it must be paid, at all events, in 45 years. The present measure, therefore, in making an arrangement to pay off the debt in 45 years. gave the public creditor the very worst repayment that by law he was entitled to. The precedent of lord Sidmouth's interference with the Sinking Fund, by no means went to bear out this measure. When lord Sidmouth, in funding 97,000,000l. at the close of the last war, made a new arrangement of the Sinking Fund, taking advantage of its produce for that time for the immediate exigency, the public creditor was compensated by giving up the surplus over 4,000,000l. a year, which would become applicable to the current service in 1808. Here there was no compensation whatsoever. He entered into a variety of statements to prove, that, by the plan of the noble lord, the most distinct disadvantage would accrue to the public, if they could allow themselves to be deluded by it. He deeply regretted that the expectation had been raised in the country, that during the period of war no greater annual loan would be required than 11 millions, an expectation which there was not the slightest possibility of being realized. He concluded by hoping that the house would not come to any decision on the subject, but leave it in an unprejudged state for the consideration of another session.

Lord Henry Petty

replied to the chancellor of the exchequer, and asked, how he could call upon the house to defer its opinion on a measure which was contingent on another which had been passed by the legislature, and received the pointed approbation of the king? All that was implied in the resolutions which he intended to propose was, that the house should express its determination that, if the boon should continue for the time proposed, then a benefit would be expected in return. He was not prepared to say that it would be of very material import if these resolutions should be postponed until next sessions; but then the same arguments that were now urged, might be advanced in favour of longer delay, and so on, until the house and the country felt the inconvenience of no legislative regulation having been agreed to sooner. The act of 1802 had been spoken of, but he would ask, did not the legislature then act for the advantage of the public creditor, without ridiculously waiting until the individuals that composed that body should petition the house to interfere in their behalf? The principle upon which the sinking fund was raised, was, it was true, then broken in upon; but it was for the advantage of the public. An advantage to a greater extent would be reaped from the present system; it was by a regard to the security of the public creditor, and a seasonable attention to his interest; it was by public security, and the facility of disposing of property in our funds that an immense capital was drawn into the service of the public. It was said, that the proposer of these resolutions only accelerated the disorder in order that he might apply the remedy; but it was not right that regulations should be adopted for general supply, so as to prevent any sudden emergency hereafter. Would any man wish to get rid of a plan for the better supplying of this metropolis with provisions, merely because we did not want provisions at present? He did not say that exactly the same individuals would hold the stock at each time; but still a certain general good would be effected. It was certain that a proportion of stock, amounting to the value specified, would be paid off in a given period. It was said, however, that contingencies were not provided for, as it was seen that there was a vote of credit for 3 millions last year. The different items, however, of which that sum was composed, were expressly stated, and the house was then satisfied with the statement. In fact, it never was asserted that the system which was now to be proposed, would cover every extraordinary contingency, such as subsidies, arrears of subsidy, &c. But by the plan, as has been already stated, a certain sum will assuredly be paid off in a given time: and if ever there was a time when economy was to be looked to particularly, it was the present, (not economy as to abuses, for in that they were all agreed,) but economy as to the general management of the affairs of the public, and a serious consideration as to whatever would most tend to maintain the public credit. The country would, if these resolutions were adopted, be relieved from considerably increasing burthens for the present, and look forward with certain hope as to the future.

Mr. Huskisson

contended that the taking from the Sinking Fund, even at the end of ten years, would be diminishing the security which the public creditor now held; and he considered that it would be in the highest degree absurd to declare now, that in ten years we would take from the Sinking Fund, when it was absolutely impossible to foresee the state of the country in ten years, whether it would be at peace or at war, or whether it might not be necessary then to add to the Sinking Fund, instead of taking any thing away from it.

Mr. Dent

expressed his opinion, that so long as we were able to raise taxes sufficient to pay the interest of our loans, there was no necessity for the plan of the noble lord.

Mr. H. Addington

defended the conduct of his noble relation (lord Sidmouth). There were some gentlemen who, if they disapproved of his conduct at the time that was alluded to, disapproved of it sub silentio. He thought it really somewhat extraordinary that some gentlemen should approve of what was said to give a breathing time to taxation, and yet not approve of the resolutions that were to be moved in support of that system.

Mr. Long

declared, that he had entertainer strong objections to the measure of the no- ble lord in 1802, though he had deferred to the opinion of his late right hon. friend. He saw no reason for pressing the proposition of the noble lord opposite, this session.

Mr. Davies Giddy

was so convinced of the radical truth of the noble lord's original propositions, that if he now pressed his motion, he should support it. At the same time, he saw not the utility of proposing the motion, when it was not likely to be acted upon.

Mr. Vansittart

defended the plan of his noble friend, and thought that the time for requiring of the public creditors any sacrifice was, when they had an advantage from the augmentation that had been made this year to the sinking fund.

Mr. Rose ,

though he had entertained considerable doubts as to the measure adopted in 1802, had yet got rid of those doubts in consequence of the circumstances under which it had been brought forward. The plan of the noble lord was founded upon an accumulating debt, and a decreasing Sinking Fund, but the original plan of his late right hon. friend was founded upon an increasing Sinking Fund, and a decreasing Debt.—The question was then put for going into the committee, and negatived without a division.