HC Deb 02 July 1807 vol 9 cc718-21
Mr. Rose ,

agreeably to notice, made his promised motion for the production of certain letters which had passed on the subject of the Cloathing for the Veteran Battalions, and which had not been produced in compliance with a former order of the house. He thought it necessary to explain what the nature of the letters and minutes, which in his opinion were material to the subject in question, and which he presumed to think had been improperly withheld, actually was. When he was appointed one of the joint paymasters of the forces, it occurred to him, that if any savings were likely to be made in the military department, the cloathing was a branch in which it might as probably be effected as in any other. He inquired accordingly, how other parts of the service were provided in this respect, and found that a person who contracted for cloathing the marines, did so at a rate greatly lower than that charged for cloathing the invalids. He sent for this person and found that his charge was only 1l. 1s. 6d per suit, whereas the charge then made for cloathing the invalids, was 1l. 7s. 9d. It turned out, however, that there was more lace on the cloaths of the Veteran Battalions than the contractor had been aware, he therefore increased his estimate to 1l. 3s. Having ascertained this, the right hon. gent. next sent for the person accustomed to cloath the Veteran Battalions, telling him that his wish was not to change any tradesmen, if they could continue to serve the public on nearly the same terms with others. He stewed to this gentleman (Mr. Dickie) the suit of cloaths, furnished by the person to whom he (Mr. R.) had applied, whose name was Courtney, and asked if he (Mr. D.) was willing to serve government agreeably to that pattern, for 1l. 3s.? Mr. Dickie replied he could not, and that if he (Mr. R.) could get any person to contract with him on such terms, it would be wrong in him not to close with the offer. After the pattern suits had been approved of, Mr. Rose did give Mr. Courtnay the orders, and some of the battalions were served by him. When he wished, however, to deliver to the noble lord (Temple) 2000 suits which had been prepared, they were refused to be accepted of, on the ground that they were of bad quality, of bad workmanship, and too scanty. In the mean time the noble lord again applied to a Mr. Box, who was a partner of Mr. Dickie, and received an estimate from him, not indeed as he had formerly charged, amounting to 1l. 7s. 9d. but to 1l. 4s. 9d, being, however, 1s. 9d. Per suit more than those furnished by Mr. Courtnay, It appealed from the minutes in the office, that this change had been made in consequence of complaints that the cloathing was of bad quality, bad workmanship, &c. and that letters had accordingly been written to the commanding officers of the different battalions who had been served by Mr. Courtnay, inquiring if the fact was so? The answers to this inquiry had not been produced; and it was of the suppression of them that Mr. Rose complained. He proceeded to read these letters, as they were to be found in the office, and stated, that so far from supporting the truth of the complaints made against the quality of the cloth and workmanship furnished by Mr. Courtnay, they uniformly proved his articles to be better, in these respects, than they had been for several years. The only fault they had, was that they were small, and under the general size; a fault which was immediately remedied. So, therefore, the minute in consequence of which the contract with Mr. Courtnay was set aside, and that with Mr. Box entered into, was unsupported by evidence, and proceeded on a false allegation. This might, in his opinion, become no improper subject of inquiry for the Committee of Finance, or the Commissioners of Military Inquiry. All, however, that he now wished to move for was that the letters from the commanders of the battalions as to the quality of the cloaths furnished should be laid before the house. He concluded by moving for Copies of all Minutes, Letters, &c. relative to the Cloathing of the Veteran Battalions between the years 1804 and 1807.

Lord Temple

said, he should not inquire into the reasons which had induced the rights hon gent. to take on himself the present statement, when, if there was any thing in it, the Committee of Finance or Commissioners of Military Inquiry, were, as he himself stated, the proper persons to inquire into the circumstances of it. At the time the right hon. gent. originally made his motion, he (lord T.) explained to him, that there were a great many of the letters referred to contained in the minutes, it would therefore be unnecessary to produce them, and in this the right hon. gent. seemed at the time to acquiesce. There was at that time other information and other letters on the subject, which, being of a private nature, and not addressed to him in his public capacity, he did not feel himself authorised to produce. He now, however, had certificates of the facts, contained in those letters, and which he thought material. Mr. Box had cloathed the battalions in question for 15 years previous to the time of Mr. Courtnay's having been employed. Shortly after he (lord T.) came into office, complaints were made to him of the badness and smallness of the cloathing. In consequence of these complaints, inquiry was made, and a comparison was also taken of a suit of them with a suit belonging to another corps. They Were found to be badly made up, and from this circumstance, joined to their being of an under size, the contract was given back to the man who had executed it for 15 years. Two things were to be considered in a contract. It might be too dear, or it might be too cheap. The inadequacy of quality and size was in this instance, found to be by no Means counterbalanced by the lowness of the price. There was a difference between the two estimates of 19001. which surely the public could not reckon any object when put in competition with the health, warmth, and comfort of those brave men who had been wounded in their service. His lordship proceeded to read a letter and a certificate from the major of the second battalion, and from the quarter master of the battalion at the Tower, stating that the cloaths furnished by Mr. Courtnay were by no means fit for men wounded in the service, who required large and comfortable cloaths, but might be fit enough for stripplings. They were in general too small, some of them had to be cut down to join out others; 600 could not be fitted out of 1000 suits: some of those furnished by the former clothiers, were required to be issued to supply the deficiency; 200 were obliged to be returned; and when remonstrated with as to the unfitness of the cloathing, the answer by Mr. Courtnay was, that he would be a great loser by the contract. The noble lord referred to his successor, if applications had not been made to him, from more than one battalion, not to change the old clothier.

Mr. Long

admitted that applications had been made to him, but the mode was now changed, being by advertisement for estimates. If the noble lord had been at all hurt by the agitating of the present question, he could not help thinking he had himself alone to blame, in carrying away in his pocket such evidence as seemed to support the step which he had taken, and leaving behind him in the office only such evidence as went to condemn him.

Lord Howick

complained, that these charges were preferred without giving his noble friend the opportunity of a fair trial, From the information his noble friend had received, he was not only justified in transferring the contract as he had done; but he would have been highly culpable if he had not transferred it. He knew not whether the clothing of the marines was furnished by Mr. Courtnay; but he had heard while at the admiralty very general complaints of the marine clothing.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer

thought the statement of this night entirely owing to the noble lord's own conduct. If he was inconvenienced he had himself alone to blame.

Mr. Windham

thought that though the, right hon. gent. might be justified in bringing forward the measure, he could not be justified in not now proceeding in it.

Mr. Johnstone

approved of the mode in which the business had been brought forward.

Mr. Wilberforce

wished to know if the noble lord meant to say that the substance of the letters were contained in the Minutes, or only that they were referred to in them?

Lord H. Petty

answered the question by reading a part of the minutes.

General Tarleton

begged the house to consider its own dignity. If this practice of recrimination was to be perpetually resorted to; if when a charge was to be made against one party, it was answered by a counter complaint, there never would be an end to any debate in that house. He thought the subject ought to go before a committee of inquiry, without further ceremony.

Mr. Huskisson

read extracts of letters from various commanding officers, expressing their satisfaction with the manner in which Mr. Courtnay had executed his contract. The late ministry had written a circular letter, inviting complaints against the clothing, and the uniform answer was in its favour, instead of complaining of it. But they did not wait until these answers were received; the fact being, that the new contract was hastily closed before they had received a single answer to the pompous inquiry they had affected to set on foot, previous to the dismissal of the former contractor.

Mr. Cochrane Johnstone

said, this was one of the neatest jobs he ever heard of in his life. He was glad the house had taken up the subject of the army clothing, as it would lead to the discovery of a great many abuses in that department, and tend to better the condition of our brave defenders.—The motion was then agreed to.