HC Deb 29 January 1807 vol 8 cc593-600

  1. "That the several duties of customs granted to his majesty by 43 Geo. III. c. 76, by 44 Geo. III. c. 53, and by the 45 Geo. III. c. 39, and also the several du- 594 ties of excise granted to his majesty by the 43 Geo. III. c. 81, and by the 46 Geo. III. c. 42, shall be further granted and continued, and shall be payable in such proportions, and for such further terms as may be directed by any act or acts of parliament hereafter to be passed for defraying the charge of any loan or loans to be charged thereupon in manner hereinafter mentioned, that is to say:—That on every loan to be raised on the credit of the said several duties, or any of them, and charged thereupon, there shall be set apart, out of the produce of the said duties and appropriated to the consolidated fund of Great Britain, an annual sum equal to ten pounds per centum on the amount of the sum to be raised by every such loan, out of which annual sum the interest and charges of the management of such loan shall, in the first instance, be defrayed, and a sum equal to the residue thereof shall be paid in each year, by equal quarterly payments, into the Bank of England, and placed to the account of the commissioners for the reduction of the national debt, and shall be by them applied in the purchase or redemption of such public annuities, charged on the consolidated fund of Great Britain, as they shall deem most expedient, until by the operation thereof an amount of capital stock of such annuities, equal to the capital stock created in consequence of every such loan respectively, shall have been purchased or redeemed; and that whenever and so soon as such amount of capital stock shall have been so purchased or redeemed, the aforesaid annual sum shall be at the disposal of parliament."
  2. "That the several duties granted to his majesty on the profits arising from property, professions, trades, and offices, by the acts of 43 Geo. III. c. 122, 45 Geo. III c. 15, and 45 Geo. III. 65, shall be applicable in like manner for defraying the charge of any such loan or loans, so long is the said duties shall continue payable by virtue of the said acts, and no longer."
  3. "That the total amount of any loan or loans to be so raised and charged shall not exceed the sum of 16,000;000l. in any one year, or of 210,000,000l. within 14 years from this time."
  4. "That any further or supplementary loan or loans which may be necessary for the service of any year beyond the loan or loans so charged as aforesaid on any of the several duties above-mentioned shall 595 be raised on such terms, and subject to such conditions of redemption as are hereinafter specified, videlicet, that an annual sum, equal to one per cent. on the capital stock created in respect of every such supplementary loan, shall be issued in equal quarterly payments to the commissioners for the reduction of the national debt; or that other provisions shall be made by parliament for redeeming the same within 45 years from its creation; and every such loan may be charged upon any duties to be hereafter granted or appropriated by parliament for such purpose, or on any temporary annuities which may expire, and become applicable by parliament, conformably to the provisions of an act made in the 42d of Geo. III. c.71."
  5. "That in consideration of the large amount which by the effect of the foregoing Resolutions will be applicable to the redemption of the National Debt, beyond the sums which, in consequence of any law now in force, would be applicable thereto; it is reasonable and expedient that the provisions of an act 32 Geo. III. c. 55, so far as relates to the redemption of the several public funds created or to be created subsequent to the year 1802, and also that the provisions of an act 42 Geo. III. c. 71, so far as relates to the redemption of the several public funds therein mentioned, should be so altered and amended as may be necessary for giving effect to the principles of the said acts, in such manner as may, under the present circumstances, be most beneficial to the public interests."
  6. "That it is expedient, that whenever the whole of the sums applicable to the reduction of the National Debt, by virtue of any act or acts now in force, shall have accumulated to an annual amount exceeding the amount of the interest payable in respect of all such public redeemable annuities, created at any time previous to the 5th day of January, 1807; as shall then remain unredeemed, the excess of such annual sums above such interest shall be at the disposal of parliament, and may be made applicable to the charge of any loan or loans thereafter to be raised into such other public service as parliament may direct, but in such manner and to such extent only as shall always leave an annual sum applicable to the reduction of the National Debt, sufficient to redeem every part thereof, which existed previous to the 22d day of June, 1802, within 45 years 596 at the utmost from the said 22d day of June, 1802; and also sufficient to redeem every part thereof created subsequent to the said 22d day of June, 1802, within 45 years at the utmost from the date of its creation."
  7. "That whenever the annual sums applicable to the reduction of the National Debt in respect of any loan or loans to be charged as aforesaid in the several war duties before mentioned, shall exceed the amount of the interest payable in respect of such part of the capital stock created in respect of any such loan or loans which shall then remain unredeemed, the excess of such annual sums above such interests shall be at the disposal of parliament in time of peace, but not in time of war, and in such manner and to such extent only, as that an amount equal to the capital stock created by every such loan respectively shall always be redeemed within 45 years from the date of the creation of such loan."
  8. "That whenever the annual sums applicable to the reduction of the National Debt, in respect to any such supplementary loan or loans as aforesaid, shall exceed the amount of the interest payable in respect of such part of the capital stock created in respect of any such loan or loans as shall then remain unredeemed, the excess of such annual sums above such interest, shall be at the disposal of parliament, but in such manner and to such extent only as that an amount equal to the capital stock created by every such loan respectively shall always be redeemed within 45 years from the date of the creation of such loan."
  9. "That for the purpose of ascertaining the due execution of the regulations provided by the above Resolutions, separate accounts shall be kept by the commissioners for the reduction of the National Debt, of all public funds, or securities purchased, or redeemed by the sums vested in them by virtue of any act or acts now in force, or by such sums as shall be vested in them, in respect of any loan or loans charged on the aforesaid war duties, or any of them, or in respect of any Supplementary loan or loans to be raised as aforesaid; provided nevertheless, that the said several sums may be applied indiscriminately in the purchase of any such public funds or securities, as the said commissioners may think expedient."
  10. "That an account shall be taken, 597 and laid before this house, of the net produce of all the permanent taxes for three years, ending the 5th day of January, 1807; adding thereto an estimate of the future annual produce of such of the said taxes as have not been in full receipt during that period, with an average thereof; and if the net produce of those taxes in the years ending the 5th day of January, 1803, 1809, and 1810, shall in the average of those three years exceed such former average, such excess, or any part thereof, shall be at the disposal of parliament, and applicable to the charge of any loan or loans thereafter to be raised, or to such other public service as parliament shall direct, and so on successively in any future years, if the excess of such taxes on an average of three years shall exceed the first average by more than the amount of any sums which may then have been charged thereon; but if on any such three years average there shall appear any deficiency below such average, together with such additional charge aforesaid, such deficiency shall be made good by parliament."
  11. "That an account shall be annually taken, and laid before this house, of the net produce of the several war duties aforesaid, and upon an average of three years, from the 5th day of January, 1807, the annual net produce thereof shall have fallen short of 21,000,000l. Such deficiency shall be made good by parliament, and so on successively in any subsequent year, in which any loan or loans shall be created and charged thereupon in manner aforesaid."

Mr. Rose

said, he would not detain the committee at present, as any observations upon this plan would come better afterwards. He only wished to suggest, that the annuities which the noble lord mentioned as one of the means for carrying this measure into effect, had been already actually applied by law to the Sinking Fund.

Lord Henry Petty

observed, that the right hon. gent.'s recollection failed him. It was true, that in 1786 they had been applied as he stated, but in 1802 they had been detached from this purpose. The debate would more properly take place after the Resolutions were printed; and besides the Resolutions, there was a set of Tables illustrative of the different forms and modes in which the plan he had just detailed would operate, and of which, although they could not be regularly laid on the table of the house, he would take care that every member should be provided with a copy. [See Appendix to the present volume.] Conscious as he was, that in the speech he had just had the honour of making to the house, many particulars had been omitted, and many things obscurely stated, he declared it would give him pleasure to afford every possible information to the house on the subject.

Mr. Johnstone,

although he allowed that it would be preferable to postpone the debate until after the Resolutions should be printed, yet thought one short observation necessary; because, if the impression made by the speech of the noble lord were allowed to go abroad, the country might be induced to entertain an opinion which could never be realized. The noble lord had displayed great talents and great eloquence, and the display of those talents and that eloquence had been clearly evinced by his leading the house, at such a moment as the present, when the Income tax pressed so hard upon the necessities of the people, and when every alleviation of the burthens imposed by that tax had been so unprecedentedly and so steadily refused, to listen to a detail of the mischiefs which would arise from the payment of the national debt and from the relief from all their taxes. All the noble lord's conclusions proceeded on the supposition that the annual expenditure of the country would not exceed 3S millions. Grant him that, and the rest followed. What had been the consequence of a similar hope held out at the beginning of the war, namely, that the war could be carried on without any increase of debt, by the operation of the Sinking Fund? He was sure that he should not be suspected of derogating from the character and talents of the noble viscount (Sidmouth) then at the head of his majesty's government, for whom he entertained the highest respect; but undoubtedly the result of those expectations was, that in the fourth year of the war, our debt had increased 50 millions on account of England, and 17 millions on account of Ireland; being at an average rate of 17 millions annually. He feared that a similar result would follow the noble lord's calculations. The noble lord had omitted to consider the necessary enhancement that must take place in the price of every article required for the service of the country. He had made no allowance for that which was inevitable, the situation of the continent, which would call for essential aid from this country. There was another point which must immediately cause the total failure of the plan. This was the state of Ireland. The charges of a civil nature in Ireland amounted to 3,800,000l. while the whole receipt of the exchequer did not exceed 3,670,000l.; it would therefore be out of the power of Ireland to raise within herself the interest of the 5 millions. The noble lord had totally omitted to notice what must be the result when the two exchequers of England and Ireland should be united. Then the whole of the interest of the 5 millions must be raised in England, as Ireland was unable to do it within herself. Many other points might be mentioned, but these were enough to induce the house and the country not to be too sanguine in their expectations of being enabled to carry on the war for 20 years, without incurring any additional burthens. It was an expectation that could never be realized, and the disappointment of the people would render them more prone to complain of the privations to which they must necessarily be subject. He could not resist saying these few words, even under the disadvantage of the impression that had just been made by the noble lord's eloquence.

Lord H Petty ,

alluding to that part of the hon. gent.'s observations which related to Ireland, said, that the hon. gent. must be aware that the finances of Ireland rested on a footing totally distinct from those of England; that the system, therefore, with regard to the war taxes could not possibly at present extend to that country.

Mr. Hiley Addington

observed, that after the able speech of his noble friend, he would not have troubled the house had it not been for the allusion to his noble relation, made by the hon. gent. His noble relation had only said, that supposing the expenditure not to exceed 20 millions, the war might be carried on without additional taxes. This he had before stated in answer to the hon. gent. who had, on a former occasion, brought the same charge against his noble relation.

Mr. Parnell ,

in the absence of an hon. baronet (sir J. Newport), who had been compelled by indisposition to leave the house, declared, that owing to the exertions made in Ireland during the last year, the revenue of that country had been increased half a million. A few years ago the revenue of Ireland was little more than a million; it now amounted to nearly four millions. The increasing trade, and the abolition of injurious restrictions, would probably soon augment this revenue, and make the annual income of Ireland bear the same proportion to her annual expenditure, as the annual income of Great Britain did to her annual expenditure.

Mr. Corry,

from the experience he had in Irish finance, was also of opinion that they were in a very promising state. He thought, therefore, that the hon. gent. ought to be more guarded in his expressions, lest he should convey a wrong impression on the public mind. The noble lord, whose statements were so clear, and who had opened a plan which would be satisfactory to all the world, except the common enemy of all, had justly observed, that his system was not applicable to Ireland at present, whatever it might be afterwards.

Mr. Johnstone

meant no reflection on the management of the Irish finances. As to the prediction of lord Sidmouth, his argument still held good, for that noble lord had assumed that the expenditure would not go beyond 26 millions, and the noble lord opposite also assumed that it would not go beyond 38 millions. The grounds of the former prediction had failed, and so might those of the present.—The chairman then reported progress, and obtained leave to sit again on Monday se'nnight.