HC Deb 23 January 1807 vol 8 cc535-49
Mr. Hobhouse

brought up the report of the Army Esti–mates. Upon the first resolution being read,

Sir James Pulteney

rose. He said, that considering the lateness of the hour, he should confine himself to a very few ob–servations. As to the new military sys–tem being productive of an immediate sup–ply for the army, it was now proved that it had not had that effect; and although the right hon. gent. (Mr. Windham) might not have been very sanguine as to the num–ber that it might raise, yet it must be sup–posed that the advocates of the system did expect that it would at least produce some increase; whereas, on the contrary, it appeared by the estimates that it had occa–sioned a diminution. In order to make room for this system, which had only produced 5000 men in a year, we had repealed a former system which had produced 15,000. However his majesty's ministers might hope that this measure would ultimately be beneficial, he must ask them, did not they consider that some supply was neces–sary for the army in the present year, and whether any of their measures had a ten–dency to procure that supply? The hon. secretary at war had contented himself with saying, no bad effects have been yet felt from this measure; he thought, howe–ver, that he should have gone a little far–ther, and shewed that some good effects had been produced by it. As to the train–ing bill, it was a measure he extremely wished to be carried into effect. If ever there was a moment in which the measure was necessary, it was no less necessary at the present moment. The danger was not to be despised because it was somewhat distant; but, on the contrary, we should take that opportunity of being fully prepa–red to meet it when it should come. If the bill ever was a good one, it ought now to be carried into effect; but if, in the opi–nion of parliament, it was a bad bill, it ought to be repealed. As to the volun–teers, although it had been said by a noble lord that they were as numerous now as at any former time, yet it was notorious that there was by no means the same attend–ance at drills and musters that there was formerly, and that consequently the force could not be so effective.

Sir John Doyle

rose and addressed the house as follows.—Sir; I admit that it would be much more convenient to agree to the adjournment proposed by the hon. member (Mr. Rose), though it certainly does not come with the best grace from this side of the house [the general spoke from the opposition bench], for, in their long calculations, they forgot to calculate time. (A laugh.) Before I observe upon what has fallen in the course of this discussion, I wish, sir, to account for my addressing you from this side of the house, differing so materially as I do upon this subject from the gentlemen who usually sit here. I have not, in truth, come into their camp to spy the nakedness of the land; but speak from this side for reasons, perhaps, similar to those of some of my neighbours; because we cannot get good places at the other side. [This created a general burst of laughter throughout the house.] I perfectly concur with my hon. friend who spoke last (sir James Pulteney), that we ought to have an augmented, a well-organised, and well-disciplined army; that we should allow no relaxation of our efforts to obtain that desirable object; because I feel that the perils which call for that army are by no means abated; that although danger is at a distance, it is not at an end. But yet I differ most materially from my hon. friend as to the means of providing the army we require. I differ from him, particularly, as to his opinion respecting the Additional Force act. That act appears to me to have done almost every thing but what it professed to have in view. When it was active, it was mischievous; when it was inactive only, it was tolerable. After 18 months trial, it was found defective, but then ministers were just going to mend it. This puts me in mind of one of our poets, who was very deformed, and who was in the habit of exclaiming, "God mend me!" and having once uttered it before a country clown—"mend thee!" quoth Hodge, "it would be easier to make a do–zen new ones, than mend such an ill-formed one as thou art." So it may be said of this act. (A laugh.) The time they proposed for the amendment, reminds me of the story of a certain priest's maid, who, when found fault with for having omitted to do any thing, her constant reply was, "I was just going to do it." The priest, to try how far she would carry her excuses, asked her, why she had not washed his books and pa–pers? "Lord, sir," replied she, "I was just going to do it." (A loud laugh.) In this they (the late ministers) seemed to have resembled duke Wharton's puppies, who never opened their eyes till they were in the act of drowning. The Parish bill was to aid the ordinary recruiting; but in this it followed the French example, and began by cutting off the resources of its new ally; whereas the plan of the right hon. secretary is calculated to produce a good regular income, without racking the tenantry. It appears from the statement of the noble lord (Howick), that since it has be–gun to operate, it has produced more men, for a similar period, than the Parish bill and ordinary recruiting put together, even without including the enlistments at head quarters, and the desertions considerably diminished; and here I must say, that the right hon. secretary has not treated his measure so well as the measure has treated him, by having lost so much time in carrying it into effect. I will not follow the no–ble lord (Castlereagh) in his infinite series of diverging calculation, which, rapidly ac–cumulating in its progress, was to over–whelm the country with the expence of providing for its brave and worn-out defen–ders. A calculation that would deprive the veteran of a chance of spending, in calm repose, the evening of that day he had de–dicated to the service of his country, and bring "his grey hairs with sorrow to the grave." A calculation which stooped to visit the truckle-bed of infirmity, in Chelsea and Kilmainham hospitals. A calculation which wanted nothing but just data to stand upon; thereby following the mode of demonstration ascribed by Mr. Locke to a certain class of unhappy people, who always reason right from wrong principles. (A laugh.)—I am perfectly willing to pay every tribute to the eloquence of the noble lord, and his right hon. friend. I cannot, however, but deeply lament, that it should, at such a moment, be employed in obstructing that unanimity so essential to the interests of the country, and which gentlemen themselves profess to have so much at heart; for, surely, there never was a period in the annals of our history, when unanimity was so imperiously demanded: for a nation, no more than a house, divided against itself, can long stand. But I am not so romantic as to suppose that political hostility shall be for ever buried in oblivion. I had only hoped it would have been allowed to sleep, till the great object of national security was perfect and complete. I am aware, sir, that in a free country like this, an opposition is a whole–some check upon ministers: if so, the greater the talents in opposition, the more effectual the check. Now, as every man must admit the present opposition to pos–sess great talents, it follows, as a natural corollary, that, the longer the present gen- tlemen remain in that state, the better for their country. (A laugh.) But, to give them greater weight, I would humbly recom–mend they should adopt the words, as they have done the arguments, of M. Talleyrand, and make them serve as a proemium to their speeches against the treasury bench—"nous ne vous demandons rien;" in plain English, "we seek for nothing that you possess." (A laugh.) The noble lord alluded to the negociation, which I am the more surprised at, after the unanimous vote of the house, approving of the measures that had been taken to up–hold the character of the country in that transaction. The proposition originated with France—the negociation commenced under auspices the most propitious At the head of the foreign department was that minister (Mr. Fox) whose loss the nation so justly deplores—a man who, amid the endowments of a mighty mind, was peculiarly gifted with those qualities which fitted him for negociation in difficult times. To a vast, comprehensive, and cultivated understanding, he joined the most intimate knowledge of the various interests of Europe, a suavity of manner, and a spirit of conciliation, engaged foreign ministers to treat, while his probity and known honour insured the confidence of their masters. Devoid of guile, he had nothing equivocal in his conduct—nothing ambiguous in his language. He moved straight onward to his object, without turning aside into the winding ways of crooked policy or left-handed wisdom. There was nothing counterfeit in him—his affability flowed from the heart—his natural greatness required not the aid of assumed arrogance to give him consequence; he was too great to be haughty, too wise to be cunning. He was one of the few statesmen who knew the value of that adage, which, though homely, is true in politics as in morals, that "honesty is the best policy." Far be it from me to at–tempt his praise; it would require powers gigantic as his own to do him justice. Were he living, I should be silent. I never received favours at his hand. I leave it to those who have, to treat his memory lightly. I speak of him, as a man who loves his country must do, whilst deploring its brightest ornament. (Hear! hear!) If Mr. Fox were qualified for negociation in general, circumstances rendered him peculiarly so for that with France. His character stood high on the continent, as at home; and a former acquaintance with the prime minister of France, gave a faci–lity in his case, that would not have applied to other ministers, however capable. Thus commenced the negociation; in its whole progress, it was conducted, on the part of England, in the true spirit of peace, and with a sincerity which has always characterized this country. Its rupture was occasioned by the duplicity of a government, whose fidelity to its engagements is measured by no other standard than that of its own immediate interest. If gentlemen were serious in their professions of unani–mity, here was a favourable opportunity to display it; for it was not a question of party, but one between France and England, to be tried at the tribunal of the nations of the world; and it was essential to the character of the country, that its good faith should stand contrasted to public view, with the chicane and subtilty of its wily opponent. Whatever dif–ferences of opinion may prevail in this house, upon the various topics generally brought before it, there are two points upon which I cannot anticipate much diversity of sentiment; the one, the in–creased danger to which this country is exposed by recent events upon the conti–nent; the other, the necessity of meeting that danger with the spirit and energy befitting a brave people, determined to be free. With respect to the danger, I believe there are few sceptics; but least of all can they be found in the ranks of those who composed the late administration; for if the alarm they spread throughout the land, was then well founded, in what a multiplied ratio is the danger now increased? But if any man doubt of the danger, let him look at the extent of coast from the Adriatic to the Baltic; the immense population; the numerous well-disciplined and well-commanded armies; and let him consider, that all these resources are at the uncontrolled disposal of that man who has sworn upon his altars eternal hatred to Britain. But I learn, that an idea prevails, that this country is secure as long as she preserves her superiority at sea. No opinion more natural to be formed; no opinion more dangerous to be relied on. If this were true, then indeed might every man in the nation lay his head upon his pillow in perfect security. It is impossible to value more, highly, or to feel more proudly than I do, the brilliant achievements of our gallant tars. I know, that when the fleets of France are met by those of England, vic–tory is no longer doubtful; and that the only question now asked by a British commander is, not, what is the force, but, where is the enemy?—But knowing all this, I also know that the sea is wide, and that the elements are fickle: and ministers must be endowed with supernatural powers; they must "ride in the whirlwind, and direct the storm;" they must be able to tell the sea, "Thus far shalt thou go, and no farther; here shall thy proud waves be stayed." All this they must do, before I can trust the safety of my country merely to its superiority at sea. It is true, the ports of the enemy are blockaded; and, as it is affectedly expressed, their fleets are hermetically sealed up. As long as this blockade continues, and the seals remain unbroken, the country may be safe; but the same gale that forces our fleets to seek shelter in their own ports, gives free egress to those of the enemy to escape from theirs. What has been, may be; none can forget that the expedition under Hoche was prevented from landing in Ireland, solely by the interposition of a providential hurricane. Now, as I have not learned that ministers have laid in a stock of spare hurricanes, or that they have entered into any commercial treaty with the old ladies at Lapland, who are said to traffick in this article; I cannot conclude the country safe, merely because it is supe–rior at sea. But in stating the danger, I trust none will imagine that I mean to create dismay or despondency. I know that if the danger is great, the spirit and resources of the nation are equal to meet it; but I wish to alarm to vigilance, to excite to caution, and to rouse into action, the energies of the country, for the salvation of the country. But above all things, I am an–xious that we should not slumber under the shade of false security, "lest in that sleep we meet death."—Having shewn that government has not been able to re–store the blessings of peace, and that the continuation of the war is inevitable; ha–ving stated the danger as it appears to me, and having pointed out the fallacy of relying solely upon our naval strength, splendid as its renown is, I now come to the other arm of our national force, so essential in either of the supposed cases. The excellence of our present army is acknowledged by every man in the nation, and it lives in the recollection of the enemies of our country: we are inferior to the enemy in numerical force alone. But to return to the plan of the right hon. secretary. It has been remarked, that this measure of limiting the term of service, would have no effect upon the minds of soldiers, or those likely to become so. Now, I have in my hand, sir, two papers that will shew the futility of an observation so opposite to common reason. The one is the return of a battalion of reserved men, in which, for the six months previous to the new measure, 147 men engaged for general service, while 334 engaged in the six months subsequent to his measure. The other is a still stronger case; for seven months prior to this change, only one man, out of a battalion of 400 men, extended his services; but in the month when the right hon. secretary's plan was explained to the battalion, 264 immediately turned out; thus polling, as it were by acclamation, for his measure. (Hear! hear!) These were good men, fit to be soldiers, capable of a military life, and not such as were received into the army, under the Parish bill; for the recruits obtained under the right hon. secretary's measure are not only superior in quantity, but better in quality, than those furnished by that notable bill. There has, been a great difference in the desertions also, as a right hon. gent. has observed. But perhaps it is not quite correct to set down as deserters all those who received bounty under the Parish bill, and were never heard of more—for such fellows never joined, or meant to join any corps, and therefore could not strictly be called deserters, but robbers; and I am not sure that it would be quite incorrect to consider those as accomplices who held out such temptations to them. A great part of those, whom this bill collected, were, in fact, unfit for service; even where they were honest enough to shew a disposition to serve. How many of them have I seen, each bring a wife and six children! The old adage says, that it requires 9 tailors to make a man: but 19 of the fellows I have alluded to, would not make a soldier. They were really for the most part such as Falstaff would be ashamed to march through Co–ventry. You would in fact imagine that they were raised by a general gaol delivery of the nation, and a discharge of all the parish workhouses. It was, in short, taking a heavy load off the parishes, and trans–ferring it to the army. The force which is entitled to our confidence, must have the habit, the shape, the character, the soul of an army. I lay it down as a proposition, incontrovertible as any theorem in Euclid, that whatever weapon the enemy as- sails you with, he must be met by one of equal efficiency. If the enemy were to invade you with the trained bands of Paris, I should be content to meet him with the trained bands of London. But as he will come, if he can, with a regular disciplined army, inflated on the one hand by recent victories on the continent, and impelled on the other by the prospective plunder of this country, he must be met by a regular disciplined army, prepared to conquer or to die. But by this allusion, although it na–turally induces a reference to the volunteers, I would by no means be understood to speak lightly of that meritorious body. I admired, as much as any man, that brilliant effusion of national spirit and valour, which burst forth so nobly in the hour of danger; and, I have no doubt, that the manifestation of that spirit made a very powerful impression on the enemy. It is not, however, inconsistent with the respect and regard which I always entertained for those gallant men, to express my disapprobation of the system under which they were originally organized and trained. A great deal of unnecessary instruction and inappropriate discipline was, at the outset, attempted to be communicated to them. It did happen to me in America to meet with a circumstance from which I derived much useful information on this head. About 150 recruits were sent out to the regiment of which I was adjutant; I immediately proceeded to have them taught, secundém artem, eyes to the right, toes out, &c. But I was interrupted in my course by the ma–jor, who was a very sensible, intelligent man, and who told me, that "I began at the wrong end." I accordingly changed my course, and taught my men to manage the firelock. This was the major's advice, who thought it most necessary, particularly when time pressed, that the men should learn to fire at the enemy, and this proved to be wise, for in three weeks after they arrived, these recruits had to meet the enemy. Now the volunteers ought to have been so instructed, for the invasion by the enemy was almost daily expected at the very time that a kind of discipline was commenced, which they could not learn for months, and which was unnecessary even if they could. They would be ex–tremely useful as auxiliaries to our army, if the enemy landed, particularly from the nature of the country, and their local knowledge, were they merely trained as light troops; in which case, the physical powers of the individual, and his patriotic spirit, would have fair play. Besides, it is the species of force, in which we are the most deficient and which is peculiarly ap–plicable to an inclosed country. But perhaps I ought to apologise for speaking so much upon a military subject, because those who are not military, speak most learnedly upon it. Although, in other cases, men seek to know the practice as well as theory of a subject, before they venture to advise upon it, at least it is but natural that others should enquire, whether they have that knowledge, before their ad–vice is taken. We generally conclude men to have some knowledge of their own pro–fession in the ordinary concerns of life. We don't send our watch to be mended by a shoemaker; unless, indeed, we inverted Horace's rule of "Omnis sapiens est sutor;" but even in that case, his further directions should be observed, "Ne sutor ultra crepidam." (Hear! hear!) But I will not proceed farther upon this topic at present, as other opportunities will occur for discussing it. And now let me implore gentlemen to recollect, that the eyes, not only of this country, but of Europe, and of the whole civilized world, are anxiously fixed upon the proceedings of the British senate, as the last remaining prop of expiring liberty. The hopes and destinies of Europe hang upon your decisions: then let it not be said, that the imperial parliament, forgetting the great objects of its dignified character, shall occupy itself with the little disputes of party politics, contending how to get this man in, or to get that man out of the government, instead of employing all its energies to keep out the arch-enemy of all legitimate governments. We are engaged in no ordinary warfare: we contend with no common enemy, unless, indeed, the common enemy of mankind. He has sworn vengeance. Your sins are of a nature he cannot forgive. You are loyal, content, and free; you aggravate these crimes, you resolve to continue free. Your punishment would be extirpation. He comes not for conquest only, neither would pillage satiate his wrath. Desolation and destruction are his objects;—the Delenda Carthago he applies to you. The existence of all you hold dear is at stake—property, liberty, life. Be but unanimous—banish party dissentions, let every hand and heart be joined in the common cause. Be but vigilant—let him advance—he will be met by free men, determined to lose their liber–ties but with their lives. (Loud cries of hear! hear!)

Mr. Johnstone

contended, that the statements made on a former evening by the noble lord (Castlereagh) had hitherto remained unanswered. He congratulated, however, the gentlemen on the other side, on the new discovery they had made re–specting the merits of the administration of a noble viscount (Sidmouth). After ha–ving, at a former period, heaped upon that noble viscount as a minister every term of reprobation which their imagination could conceive, they had at length found out that his administration was the most ener–getic of any for these three years past. As to the boasted measure of the right hon. gent. (Mr. Windham) for recruiting the army, it must be evident that it had com–pletely failed. This appeared from the right hon. gentleman's own statement. It could not be expected that it would produce any other result. Was it by frittering away the bounty of the country in pen–nies and twopences that an army was to be raised? Was it not rather by holding out splendid rewards, which, though only falling to the lot of a few, were inducements to the many, that an army was to be expected to be created? Ministers how–ever, had not recurred to any thing of this nature, they had rather chosen to go on in the old way, and to grant promotions only to favour and to connections. What was to prevent them from recruiting from the militia? According to the right hon. gent.'s plan, the militia were to be reduced to 40,000 men; from the surplus number, therefore, the army might be strongly recruited. Yet, notwithstanding the ease with which this mode of recruiting might be resorted to, it had not been adopted. Why, the real reason he believed to be, because ministers were afraid of offending the militia colonels. This, of course, they could not state in that house, but this he believed to be the real reason. It had again been stated by a right hon. secretary of the treasury this evening, that he (Mr. J.) had pledged himself to make a motion re–specting the conduct of ministers relative to their professions of economy. He thought it necessary therefore again to deny, that he had so pledged himself. At the same time, he conceived that ministers had acted Wholly contrary to their professions of eco–nomy, and that all they had done was to give salaries to themselves, and with re–spect to salary granted to one of them he did intend to make it a subject of discussion in that house. The hon. gent. pro- ceeded to enter into an examination of the estimates, contending that there was no proof whatever in them of economy, and particularly noticing the item of contingen–cies, which was stated at 52,000l. Upon another point also be wished for some sa–tisfactory information, which as, what were the nature of the duties executed by the muster-master general of Ireland, and why it was thought necessary for that office to be executed by two persons?

Mr. Rose

expressed his regret at being obliged to detain the house at so late an hour, but he felt it his duty to make a few observa–tions, in consequence of its having been asserted by gentlemen on the other side, that if these estimates had been brought forward by the late administration, the amount would have been 5 or 600,000l. greater than their present amount. He could not avoid, however, digressing from this subject, to notice two or three other points. He had listened to the panegyric of the hon. baro–net, sir John Doyle, upon present and former statesmen, and was extremely sur–prised to hear him praise ministers for their conduct during the late negotiation, a measure which, above all others, in his opinion, was calculated to hold them up to the contempt of the country. The other point was the delay in sending reinforce–ments to Buenos Ayres. It was admitted that ministers received intelligence of sir Home Popham's expedition on the 24th of June, and yet no reinforcements were sent out till October. It had been alleged that there were no transports. Why were there not? During the greater part of the administration of his right hon. friend, now no more, transports were kept constantly ly–ing at Spithead, sufficient for three thou–sand men, with victuallers ready to accom–pany them. It was not to be expected that transports were to be ready for a stay of four or five years, in any place to which they Might be sent, but certainly transports were at the disposal of ministers, sufficient to enable them to send a strong reinforce–ment to that expedition. His right hon. friend also constantly took care that there should be a brigade of three or four thou–sand men kept ready for any emergency. Returning to the subject of the estimates, he found that the amount of them was ac–tually 475,000l. more than those of 1805. This was a sufficient answer to the assertion, that the late ministers would have made the estimates higher. With respect to the increased allowances in the Chelsea establishment, he would be the last man to object to an increase of the rewards grant–ed to those who had spent great part of their lives in the service of their country, but he dreaded the effect of these increased allowances in a peace establishment. In the event of a peace, probably 50,000 men would be discharged, and, adding the in–creased allowances, an additional expence would accrue of 6 or 700,000l.

Mr. H. Thornton

thought the measure of the right hon. gent. (Mr. Windham) for recruiting the army, deserved the highest praise as a general and permanent system, but he doubted its effect in providing for immediate defence. He approved highly of converting the service for life into a service for years. He approved also of the training bill, as tending to diffuse a mili–tary spirit throughout the country, but at the same time he thought it was calculated to do any thing rather than provide for im–mediate defence. The right hon. gent. had on former occasions given them the tone in calling for measures calculated to pro–cure an immediate supply for the army, and he must allow them to give him the tone again, in calling for measures of a similar nature. Much time was necessarily lost in preparing great measures, and in carrying them into execution, and he felt anxious for some measure that should in the mean while meet the immediate exi–gencies of the country.

Mr. Jacob

made a few observations relative to the capture of Buenos Ayres. Among other things, he stated that a most able and intelligent officer, a gentleman who had been particularly noticed in the dispatches from that place, had informed him that nothing but the great prompti–tude of general Beresford, prevented the army from laying down their arms; and that, if it were not that the most active and spirited exertions were made by that officer, if they were delayed for the space of two or three hours, the whole army must have met with inevitable destruction. An account of the recapture of that place had been put into his hands since he had come into the house; but from a compa–rison of the date of that communication, and the place it came from, with the date of the original capture, and the situation of the city itself, he found that it was im–possible that the fact could then have ta–ken place, and therefore could not suppose from that authority, that it had taken place at all. To have carried the intelligence from the one place to the other at that time, the bearer must, without the convenience of stage coaches, have travelled between 3 and 4000 miles in the course of 72 days, and that over roads considerably worse than those of the Alps, or the very worst parts of the continent of Europe.

Lord H. Petty

corrected some apprehensions which appeared to have prevailed among gentlemen on the opposite side of the house. It was stated, that the number of men raised according to the papers on the table, did not equal the amount of what his right hon. friends had stated in their speeches. It was to be recollected, however, the papers began the account from the month of March last, and, of course, they did not contain a year's return. Now, if gentlemen would have the goodness to wait until the month of March next, he was confident, from the result of the most minute enquiries which he had made in the best informed quarters, that by that time the numbers would even exceed those stated in the estimate of his right hon. friends; the house had also the testimony of a gallant officer near him (general Doyle), that the measure of the right hon. secretary was already the means of adding to the consideration and character of our army: then, when he considered that it was thought by the noble lord (Cas–tlereagh) and the other gentlemen on the opposite side of the house, to be a most grievous piece of expence, that some trifling addition should be given to the sol–dier who was disabled in the service of his country; when he reflected on this, he could not say that he envied the feelings of those noble and honourable members. Oh miserable thought to their minds, if some happy man should, after the faithful discharge of his duty to his king and coun–try, enjoy perhaps some 20l. a year! For his own part, he was anxious to reform abuses and diminish expences where the practices were known to be corrupt or the establishments useless; and he would challenge the gentlemen on the opposite side to contradict him when he stated to the house, that in the staff at home, there had been, within the last year, a saving of 43,000l. and in the barrack department, notwithstanding there had been last year a retrenchment to the amount of 500,000l. there was in this year a further saving of 50,000l. and in the commissariat depart–ment there were nine places less than in the preceding year. Put to give grud- gingly to the worn-out veteran was a thought which he could not bear; and he was of opinion, that his right hon. friend (Mr. Windham) was entitled to the thanks of the country for the act, not of generosity, but of humanity and justice, he must call it, which he had done in their name to a most deserving set of men. The volun–teer corps had been mentioned on the other hand, with a view of reflecting on ministers for having made a saving in the expence of that establishment; but, to the volunteers, he would give the credit that belonged to them, and say he knew that they were not to be looked upon as a mer–cenary body; he was well convinced that they would not look with a magnifying glass at every little saving that was made in the public expence attendant on their establishment. When he looked at the to–tal of the estimates, and heard gentlemen opposite say, "Oh, but if you had let us stay in another year, you should have seen what vast savings we should have made!" it reminded him of what was said of a man, who wished to become celebrated for a wit: That his wit was very good, but that it was all borrowed from yesterday; in speak–ing of those gentlemen, he must reverse this observation, and say that all their clever–ness was borrowed from to-morrow.—After some further observations, the resolutions were read a second time and agreed to.