HC Deb 12 January 1807 vol 8 cc438-43

Lord Castlereagh, in pursuance of the notice which he had given on a former day, rose to submit his motions to the house. It was a satisfaction to him to find that no objection was likely to be made to the production of any of the returns for which he proposed to move. It would unquestionably be more satisfactory to the house, that no argument should be produced upon the subject to which his motions referred, until the documents he was to call for should be before the house. It was, therefore, not his intention to submit any reasoning to the house upon the question in the present stage. He should confine himself to a short statement of the points upon which he desired information, and to which his several motions would go. The first point upon which he thought it necessary to call for information, was the actual state of the army, regulars, and militia. His first motion, therefore, would be for a return of the present actual effective strength of the regular army, the militia, and the artillery, up to the latest period when returns had been made, and at the end of every month from the first of March l806, inclusive. By this return the house would be enabled to judge how far the army had undergone any increase or diminution of its effective strength within that period. The next point upon which he proposed to move for information, was with respect to the sources, from which the supply for keeping up the strength of the army, was derived. By this return the house would be able to form some opinion of the sources of supply which formerly existed, to see what part of them still continued, and what part of the existing sources of supply had produced the greatest increase, as well as the policy of continuing or altering any part of them. The two motions which he meant to bring forward on these heads would put the house in possession of full information respecting the general state of the army, and the means at present existing for keeping it to its proper establishment. His two next, and indeed his only, further motions related to branches of our military force, that were collateral to the regular army, and calculated to support and keep it up; he meant the volunteers, and that other branch, which had engaged so much of the attention of the house during last session, when the general Training bill was under discussion. He proposed to move for a Return of the effective strength of the Volunteers, on the 1st of January, 1806, and also at the latest period of any returns of that force, distinguishing the period at which the last returns had been made. He felt that much information was necessary on the subject of the Volunteers; but a more seasonable opportunity would occur for calling for it, and discussing the question, when the documents he was then to move for should be before the house. The fourth head of information to which his motions referred, was the sole one that remained for him to advert to, namely, the general Training bill; because, whatever the right hon. gentleman might think of his explanation upon that head on a former night, it had proved by no means satisfactory to him, nor did he think it could be satisfactory to the house, or to the public. It did not appear from the right hon. gent.'s statement, that any steps had been taken in execution of that measure, except so far as respected the procuring lists. His last motion, therefore, should be for an abstract of the proceedings that had taken place in execution of that bill. When the information for which he proposed to move should be before the house, he should be prepared to state his opinion; and if the papers should not prove, that the state of the army was not, according to the prospects that had been held out to that house last session, more satisfactory, than, upon the general information which a person circumstanced as he was could obtain, was disposed to believe it; he should never bring himself to consent to a renewal of that fundamental change in the Mutiny act, which the right hon. gent. had introduced into it last session. If it should not appear that a great increase had been effected by the alteration in the amount of the army, whilst it laid the foundation of so great a diminution of its numbers, he should feel it his duty to endeavour to bring back the Mutiny act to its former provisions, and to those principles upon which the British army had been carried to such an extent of reputation and strength. The noble lord concluded with submitting his motions, which were to the following effect, to the house:—"1. That there be laid before the house, monthly returns of the amount of the effective strength of his majesty's regular troops and militia, from the 1st of March, 1806, to the 1st of January, 1807, inclusive; distinguishing cavalry, foot guards, infantry of the line, garrison and veteran battalions, foreign and local corps, German legion, West-India corps, British and Irish militia, and distinguishing those serving abroad from those serving at home.—2. A similar return of the effective strength of the artillery for the same period inclusive, distinguishing the corps serving abroad and at home.—3. A return of the number of men raised monthly for the regular army, from the 1st of Jan. 1805, to the 1st of Jan. 1807, exclusive of foreign or colonial levies, and distinguishing those raised by the additional force act, by the regular recruiting, and those that were inlisted from the militia.—4. Copies of all orders or regulations that have been issued since the last session of parliament, respecting the recruiting of the regular army.—5. An abstract of the effective strength of the volunteers on the 1st of January, 1806, distinguishing infantry and cavalry; also a like return at the latest period when any return has been made, specifying within what period such return had been made.—6. An abstract of such instructions as have been issued by his majesty's command to the lieutenants of counties, and of such proceedings as have been taken thereon in execution of the act of last session of parliament, for the general training of the population of the country."—On the question being put upon the first motion,

Mr. Secretary Windham,

though he felt that no information was too much, that could be supplied to the house on this subject, was yet of opinion that there might be many points which it would not be de- sirable to have made known. Every gentleman was aware, that any documents which might be laid before that house, were not exclusively confined to the members, but made their way to the public, and of course to the enemy. In this view it would appear to the house that there might be points, which, however desirable it may be that the house should be informed upon, it would still be not prudent to let the knowledge of them reach the enemy. When the noble lord had read over this motion to him, it had not appeared to be liable to any serious objection. The noble lord had stated to him, that it did not differ from a motion that had been agreed to in a former year, except in this, that this motion called for the monthly returns, whilst that had been half-yearly returns. But it appeared to him at present that his motion was objectionable, inasmuch as it would expose the strength of some particular local corps to the enemy. It would be an ungracious duty for him to object to the production of the information desired, yet, however he might have himself contributed to the production of similar returns in any former period, he should not hesitate between his private wish and his sense of public duty. The noble lord might perhaps shape his motion so as not to be liable to this objection, in which case he should agree to it with cheerfulness. He could not consent to have the returns of the black colonial troops, which were employed only in the West Indies, produced in the form called for by the noble lord; but he would leave it to him to explain his own motion in such a manner, as might obviate the objection that applied to it.

Lord Castlereagh

concurred in the wisdom of the observation of the right hon. gent. that it mould not be proper to produce any documents which might give any dangerous information to the enemy. But from the manner in which this subject had been brought before parliament for the last three or four years, he thought the information he called for, necessary to the house. He had remembered, indeed, one instance, in which not only the number but the distribution of the British forces had been produced on motion. The enemy, however, could have the same information from publications countenanced in this country. He had moved only tor the gross amount of the British army, abroad and at home, and not its distribution; and this information was necessary to the house, in order to enable them to discover what proportion of that force was applicable to the defence of the country. If parliament took the responsibility upon itself, by the part it had acted, in changing altogether the whole military system, by its measures respecting the volunteers and the training, it was essentially necessary for them to know what force they had for the defence of the country. He certainly thought that they might get information of the gross amount of the black corps, as he did not propose to interfere with their local distribution, without giving any dangerous information to the enemy, especially as the black troops were not the only troops in the West Indies.

Mr. Secretary Windham

admitted that the observations of the noble lord had, in a great measure, obviated his objection. He had still, however, a difficulty in stating the amount of black troops, which were exclusively employed in the West Indies. But as they were not the only corps employed, the objection did not appear to him material, and he should, therefore, not press it.

Lord Castlereagh

consented to have the black West-India regiments thrown into the gross amount of the foreign local corps.—The motion was then agreed to, as were the second, third, fourth, and fifth, without any particular or material observation.—On the question being put upon the last,

Mr. Secretary Windham

begged leave to say a few words on that occasion, which appeared to be called for, by some observations that had fallen from the noble lord in allusion to the measure to which this motion referred. The noble lord, from his experience of the additional force act, and every other gentleman, who was acquainted with the execution of such, must be aware that they embraced a great deal of civil detail, which it was impossible to precipitate. The militia lists had been used in preference to those originally pointed out by the bill. That part of the process had not been gone through, and until it had, it would have been impossible to accelerate the operation of the measure by the authority of office. All that had been foreseen by the framers of the measure, as well as that it was incapable of being executed last summer. If even there had been a necessity to put it in execution, it could not have been ready for such execution before the Spring. In the present state of the world and of the sea- son, it would not be very eligible to put it into operation, even if every thing was ready. The noble lord seemed anxious for co[...]ies of the proceedings under this measure, and returns of the enrolments. But he could inform the noble lord, that that part of the process had already been gone through, and that nothing remained to be done but the apportionment, which had even already been begun. The act had left the government a discretionary power, as to its execution according to circumstances, and consequently justified fully their conduct respecting this measure. This was all he had thought necessary to say, in consequence of the observations of the noble lord, nor should he have said so much, if the noble lord had not made some allusion to a motion for military enquiry in consequence of the measures with which the house had recently been engaged, and which had been recommended by him. The noble lord might certainly have felt the necessity of such enquiry, from the consequence of those measures in which he had so large a share.—The motion was then agreed to.