§ Mr. Whitbreadmoved the order of the day for the house going into a committee upon this bill, and that it be an instruction to the committee to divide it into two or more bills as they may think fit. Previous to going into the committee, however, he thought it would be proper to say a few words explanatory of his intentions in regard to the bill, he had originally had the honour to introduce, as several gentlemen were not present upon a late occasion, when he briefly stated them. In consequence of intimations he had received from different parts of the country, of the opposition it was likely to meet with in certain points, he had thought it best to propose the division of and the abandonment of some portions of it. He intended, for instance, to abandon, 1st, that part of it which gives the power of requiring a previous adjudication of settlements. 2dly, that relative to the vestries, in so far as it gave two or more votes to persons possessed of large property in the parish. 3dly, that relative to the declaration of the assessments of stock in trade and personal property. After abandoning these parts of the original bill, he should propose to divide the remainder of it into four separate bills. The first of these would relate to education only; the second comprehend the relaxation of the law of settlements, by a residence for a certain number of years in certain parishes; vestries to be held at certain times, and notice to be given thereof. He meant to press upon the consideration of the house, the power of exempting cottagers, under a certain amount of income, from being included in the poor's rates, upon their own request; and the power of giving rewards to labourers under certain very limited circumstances, and also to repeal a part of the 9th of George I., which goes to drive into the workhouses, oppressively, all persons applying for parochial relief. He should likewise include the 491 power of building cottages at certain rents, for the residence of the poor, with a power of summary ejectments. These, and other topics, were to be comprehended in two bills, which he should press forward in the present session of parliament. The third bill, viz. that relative to the parochial fund of assurance, as being more novel than the other parts, he should propose to be read in the committee, but to be afterwards deferred to another session of parliament; and fourthly, the other bill relative to the regulation and equalization of the county rates. Having given this explanation, the hon. gent. concluded with moving that the Speaker do leave the chair.
§ Mr. Curwencommenced his speech with a handsome eulogium on the purity of the motives which actuated the hon. gent. but said he was sorry to add, that from many of that hon. gent.'s views upon this subject he materially differed. The hon. mover, in introducing this bill, had drawn a comparison between the Scotch and the English poor: he, for his part, could see no analogy whatever. He strongly deprecated the present system of poor-rates, and thought that it called loudly for parliamentary interference. The burden of the poor-rates on the middling orders was almost intolerable. He did not think that the proposed bill went in any way to alleviate that burthen. On the contrary, he contended that if the relaxation that was proposed was adopted, it would increase the poor-rates twofold; instead of their being three millions, they would be then six millions. Besides, it was to be recollected that the poor required immediate remedy; and even admitting that to be a remedy which was proposed, it was a most distant one. To the principle of funding he also objected. He did not think that the poor could fund, and even if they did it would encourage idleness. The plan of education he thought too expensive, and the system of building cottages and adjudging them to different tenants, would be productive of endless contention. He thought the corn acts of Mr. Pitt every way entitled to a preference, and though not in the habit of approving of that right hon. gent.'s administration, he felt it but justice to say, that his measures on this subject reflected the highest honour on his memory. He concluded with stating, that the poor-rates at present bore severely upon a deserving and industrious set of people: the lower orders of shopkeepers in England.
§ Mr. Plumerapproved highly of the sys- 492 tem of education, and thought it was the most desirable object of the whole plan proposed by the hon. member. He was of opinion, that the poor's rates, if well and, properly administered, were fully adequate to the support of the poor, and of a system for their education. He did not think it necessary to abrogate the existing poor laws, because he was persuaded that an amelioration in the mode of administering them, would fully answer the purpose.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersuggested the propriety of letting the bill go into the committee, in order that the hon mover might have an opportunity of bringing it out of the committee in the form in which he wished to submit his measures to the consideration of the house. This Would divide the consideration of the complicated question, and save a great deal of observation. After this proceeding, he hoped the hon. member would have no objection to give the house an opportunity of considering each of the distinct bills, by consenting to their re-commitment.
Mr. Fellowessaid, that as the hon. gent. had signified his intention of letting two of the four hills lie over till next session; he thought it would be very adviseable in him to postpone the four bills, until they had been submitted to the cool and deliberate consideration of the country.
§ Mr. Pattesontook occasion no observe, that since he had presented a petition from Norwich, against one of the clauses contained in the original bill, he had been informed by the hon. mover that the nature of that clause had been entirely misunderstood by the petitioners.
§ Mr. Fullerwished to see distinctly the whole extent of the plan proposed by the hon. gent. and, to give time for mature deliberation, he wished the measure to stand over to another session.
§ Mr. Davies Giddywas fearful, lest, whilst endeavouring to remedy partial evils, more serious ones might be introduced, and particularly animadverted on that part of the bill for building cottages.
§ Mr. Parnell ,in allusion to what had fallen from an hon. gent. respecting Mr. Pitt's Corn acts, adverted to the great advantage derived by Ireland from the Corn Intercourse act, passed by the late ministry, who had always paid so much attention to the interests of Ireland.
§ Sir Ralph Milbankeobserved, that the present system of poor laws was a bad one, and that something ought to be done to re- 493 medy the evil, and the sooner the remedy was introduced the better.
Mr. Shaw Le Fevrewould not oppose the committal of the bill, but he wished to know whether it was intended to abandon for the present the equalization of the county rates, as there was a bill now before the house for the equalization of the rates in Kent, which might be stopt, if the thing should be done by this bill.
§ Mr. Whitbreadsaid, that he would endeavour to shew that the object of his hon. friend (Mr. Curwen) for stopping the accumulation of the poor rates immediately, was chimerical. It was very fine in language, but how was it to be done? As to the equalization of the county rates, he would wish to go on with it at present, and if he should abandon it for the present, it should be only in consequence of the opinion of others.
§ Mr. Windhamwould not object to the committal of the bill, but he had such serious objections to the greater part of it, that he thought it would be better to postpone the measure till next session.—The Speaker left the chair, and Mr Hobhouse stated that the best way would be to read first, all the clauses that were to form the first bill, postponing the rest, and so on, with regard to the four bills into which it was intended to divide the present bill, find to negative such clauses as were not to be passed this session.
§ Mr. Wilberforceproposed that his hon. friend (Mr. Whitbread) should be allowed to proceed to form his four bills for the present, and that each should be re-committed, when they might be discussed.—Mr. Simeon, Mr. Fellowes, and Mr. Pole Carew, wished the bills not to be pressed this session, as the house would not have an opportunity of discussing them in all their stages, usually allowed for discussion on bills of importance, the bill having already gone through some of its stages.
Mr Bathurstobserved, that when each bill came on, gentlemen would have an opportunity of urging what they should think necessary.—The proposition of Mr. Wilberforce was at length agreed to. Mr. Whitbread presented his four bills. The house resumed, and the whole were reported.