BUDGET.

HC Deb 31 March 1806 vol 6 cc599-635

Lord Henry Petty

moved the order of the day for the further consideration of the report of the committee of Ways and Means. On the question being put that this report be now taken into farther consideration,

Mr. Francis,

who, on this occasion only, sat on the speaker's left hand, commonly called the opposition bench, began with making an apology to the gentlemen, who now occupied that situation, for committing such a trespass on their undoubted though recent right of possession. Then, addressing himself to the speaker, he said :—I have been accustomed for so many years to sit on your left hand, that I confess I feel myself more at home on this side of the house than on the other. We are creatures of habit, and naturally fall into the track we have been used to. Nevertheless, sir, as I have no particular ambition to stay here a moment more than is necessary, the gentlemen near me may be sure that I shall not invade them very long. I really have no wish to interrupt their enjoyment of these places, much less to supplant them. What I have to say to-night, will be addressed more particularly to some of his majesty's ministers. For that reason only, I wish to stand where I do, and for no purpose but to be distinctly heard by them. On the general principle of the Property Tax, supposing that to be the right name and description of a tax upon income, I may possibly deliver my opinion in another stage of the bill. I say possibly, because, on that point, my intention is by no means so resolved as my judgement. At this moment, I am not sure that it would be prudent, or, even if quite safe, that it would be fair and honest to load a measure of positive and irresistible necessity with difficulties and objections, which admit of no remedy, and to which no rational answer but necessity, can be applied. On that ground the truth of the allegation, once proved or admitted, supersedes at least, if it does not in effect prohibit, all argument. I shall therefore apply myself first to such objections only to the plan of my noble friend, as belong to the detail of the measure, and, in my opinion, admit of an easy solution. If I have mistaken him in any instance, he will readily set me right. His abilities, I believe, are equal to the task he has undertaken. But, when a great difficulty is to be encountered, a wise minister will not reject assistance of any kind, and especially if it be offered to him from a quarter, which it is not possible he can suspect of enmity or double dealing. It is not in my nature, to profess friendship for any man, and then to counteract him by indirect hostility. If he gives me credit for the sincerity of this profession, he will listen with patience to the doubts, which I shall submit to his consideration ; because patience and attention, to every body is eminently the duty of his arduous office more than of any other, from the infinite variety and perplexity of the services which it embraces; and he will listen to me with kindness too, because he ought to be convinced that I have no thoughts of adding any thing to his difficulties, much less of thwarting or retarding the public service in his hands. Before I proceed to objects, which appear to me of greater and more general importance, I wish to begin with stating and dismissing as soon as may be some inferior difficulties, which I think may be removed, and about which I believe the noble lord and I are not likely to disagree; I mean in the mode of collecting this tax. He says, that "it is ?proposed that 10 per cent. shall be paid on all property above 50l. a year; but, ?on production of the will or deed, constituting the annuity and demonstrating ?the claim to exemption, the tax office "will be authorised to make repayment." Against this provision of the bill, on its principle and on all its effects, I am bound by my opinion to protest without reserve, and to entreat the noble lord to reconsider it. In Some senses it increases the burthen on the lowest class of annuitants, who, on the professed principle of the clause, ought to be exempted. It says to the party, who ought not to pay at all, pay your ten per cent. first, and recover it afterward. In The first place, I do not believe it possible that any person, who has nothing to live on but the annuity described in the clause, can make the deposit. With an income of one hundred pounds a year, for example, I ask is it possible for any man, with; or without a family, to lay down ten pounds at once, or even by two half yearly payments? He has it not; and, if he complies with the demand, he must borrow the money. But, granting him to be able to make the deposit, what right have you to drive him to that distress, if he be the person you describe, and who is entitled to the exemption? Then what is the remedy you provide for him? Why, after paving the full amount of the tax, he may recover it from the tax office; that is, he must begin with parting with a sum, which you confess you have no right to, since you promise to restore it, and litigate for it afterwards with the collectors of the revenue. This, I conceive, is equivalent to a new tax. The annuitant in question is taken from his occupation or his labour, and loses some portion of the very income you are endeavouring to bring within the reach of the tax, while he is travelling from his home and attending at a tax office to establish his claim and to recover the sum, which you have unjustly forced him to deposit. I know, by experience, and so do we all, what the unavoidable delays and inconveniences of such a course of proceeding are, and must be. In the case of surcharges for example, I assure the house that, notwithstanding the best disposition and the greatest industry on the part of the commissioners, the trouble and vexation of going several miles, day after day, with attendance, &c. were such that, in some instances, of no great amount indeed, I have abandoned my claim, rather than be plagued with the trouble of asserting it. Yet nobody was in fault; nor do I know how the difficulty could be avoided. Then comes another and, as I imagine, a fatal objection, even to the remedy proposed. If the tax-office in every county and city is liable to refund, they must be intrusted with a perpetual deposit of public money to answer the claims of exemption, as fast as they are established; which, I conceive, would be a practice unsafe for the public, and contrary to the principles, on which the collection of the revenue is made and secured. The power left with each tax-office, to favour or to discourage every question of exemption that comes before them, deserves to be seriously weighed; considering that the unavoidable delays, incident to the recovery of a tax once paid, attended with waste of time and hindrance of business or loss of labour, are equivalent to a new tax, in the form of a burthen, and must tend to harass and distress the parties, and, in some cases perhaps, drive them to give up the object rather than pursue the process.—The next object, or rather omission, which I have to submit to the house, is objectionable on very different ground from that, which I have just stated. In that, the tax was exacted from parties, who were entitled to exemption. In this, a great mass of property, which ought to pay, does or may escape totally from the tax. I mean the whole amount of the floating securities of government, commonly called the unfunded debt, on which the proprietors receive interest from the public, just as much, if not rather more than any other holders of stock. This property, I believe, may extend to a capital: of 25 millions, more or less. The exact amount is not material to the argument; except to shew what an enormous loss may be suffered by the public, if the tax on the income of such a capital amounting to 1,250,000l. should not be duly collected. Is it meant that this species of property should be exempted from the tax? If it be, declare it, and state your reasons for the exemption. Establish, if you can, a rational distinction between the public creditor, whose capital is funded, and him, whose capital is not funded. Otherwise it is a palpable contradiction to justice and common sense, that one of those parties should pay the tax, and that the other should escape it. I know very well that every man is bound by law to include this sort of property in the return of his income ; and I say, that for obvious reasons, you ought not to depend on the fidelity of such returns, especially in a case where the intention of the law may be too easily evaded. In the funded property you do not rely on that sort of evidence. My noble friend has made an arrangement, greatly to his credit, with the governors of the bank, by which the tax on all that income is secured. If it be said that the tax will lower the marketable value of such securities; my answer is, what then? The law gives no exemption to the income from that source, any more than to the three per cent. annuities. Undoubtedly the value of all capital, Whereever it be vested, rises or falls with the interest it produces. In the case of the funded stock this consideration is not regarded. But exchequer bills and navy bills have a marketable value, independent of the interest, which arises, from the facility of transfer from hand to hand, and from other conveniencies in the daily use of them, to which the funded stock is not so readily applicable. I believe then that the tax would not affect the price, or very slightly, if at all, unless indeed you reckon the facility of evading the contribution, as an addition to the value. But, were it otherwise, it is enough for my purpose that the law does not acknowledge the distinction. The law itself, whatever be the practice of the executive power, does not favour the unfunded at the expence of the funded debt. In whatever degree the former escapes, it is a fraud or an injury to the public revenue, and an injustice to him, who honestly pays his share of that revenue. It will strengthen my argument and help you to a clear view of the abuse, if I state a fact in point,. though it makes against myself. In drawing up the last return of my property, I forgot I had two exchequer bills of 100l. each, which had lain a long time at my banker's. Nobody ever asked me for the tax on the interest of these bills. The consequence is that I am undesignedly a defaulter to government to the amount of so many Shillings. The instance is inconsiderable, but it proves the proposition. If a hundred pound can escape in this manner, why not a million? The remedy is obvious and easy. These bills are paid off at stated periods. When they are so paid, where would be the difficulty of deducting the amount of the tax from the interest then due? I see none. I shall now proceed, sir, to a more general consideration of the state of the country, with regard to its surviving powers and resources, in comparison with the demands, which those means are to provide for. A few days ago my noble friend was censured, very unjustly as I thought, for holding out a gloomy view or a desponding language on this subject. I do not recollect that he said any thing, that was fairly liable to that sort of observation; but, whether he did so or not, or even admitting that he did not suggest or encourage those sanguine hopes, which are entertained or professed by others, I say that, without suffering our minds to be governed by exaggerated hopes or fears, we ought to know the truth of our situation. Without that knowledge, you may confide or you may despond; but you can neither meet your difficulties firmly, nor safely or honestly disregard them. Look at the state of the country, I say, with all its collective burthens, direct and indirect. A careless conclusion, from the apparent wealth of the capital to the rest of the community, is of all things to be most avoided, because it leads into the worst and most dangerous error; that I mean, which begins with enormous injustice, and may end in irretrievable ruin. In this great city, I doubt not, there are ways and means, by which a multitude of individuals and some great corporations, while they pay with one hand, may indemnify themselves with the other, and so make their income whole again. But this cannot be the case in the country, nor even generally in the cities. On this view, sir, and not without the most attentive application of my thoughts to the subject, I have taken my resolution, not to examine the taxes proposed to answer the interest of the new loan, but to oppose them all. The principle I act on exempts me from enquiring into their specific merits. Admitting every one of them to be unexceptionable as a tax, I object to them in the mass. I say there ought to be no new taxes, on account of the loan for the present year. These are stated at 1,136,000l. and, as it appears to me, are to be added to the present intolerable taxation of the kingdom without an absolute and irresistible necessity, which alone could justify such a measure. In my opinion we are not driven to that extremity. If we are, prove the necessity, and there is an end of all argument. But I say you have a better resource, and that you ought to resort to it. A sinking fund has been created for the gradual extinction of the debt. There is no great skill in the contrivance, or genius in the discovery. From the time of Sir Robert Walpole to this day, it has been the favourite child of every chancellor of the exchequer. Such at least have been their professions. The merit of Mr. Pitt did not consist in the invention, which was easy and obvious, but in the effectual course he took to give abundance and vigour to the measure, and to increase the power by its own action. This he did wisely and resolutely on the principles of his plan, and I give him full credit for it. The fund, at this period, amounts to 8 millions; proceeding rapidly in its operation, and growing as it operates. Now, I ask, in what way are we the better for this fund? I mean, sir, sensibly, palpably, tangibly, and not in distant hopes, or airy speculations. Has it relieved the public from any old burthen, or has it prevented any new one? Common sense and common practice too, in similar cases, would lead one to expect that, as fast as the bond or the mortgage, or any material portion of it was discharged, the interest should cease or be extinguished in the same proportion. On that principle, when a given part of the public debt is bought up, some tax ought to be taken off; some relief ought to be granted. But, as we manage the matter now, the more we pay off, the more we borrow. The sinking fund, the debt, and the taxes grow and improve together, and keep pace with one another. I am far from meaning that this might not have been a proper course in the infancy of the measure, or in the early years of its growth. It is the maturity of the fund that changes the policy, and gives the public a claim to a share in the resource. I mean a moderate share, such as the amount of the proposed taxes would be; that is, a little more than one million out of eight. Now, I ask for what purpose is this enormous revenue extorted from the people, not only without being applied, as it might be, to their relief, but even without protecting them from fresh and intolerable exactions? It has been said, with an air of triumph too, that the amount of the sinking fund, compared with the whole debt, has grown and is growing more favourable to the public; that the arithmetical proportion of the power to the service has improved con- siderably, and that, some day or other, the fund will extinguish the debt, or essentially reduce see no sign of that event. All I know is that in fact the debt thrives by the reduction, or in spite of it. But, even if it were otherwise; if the success of these speculations, at some distant day, were as probable, as in my mind it is the reverse, what benefit does the operation furnish to the present generation? Is it an answer to misery sinking under oppression, that a remote posterity will be the better for our sufferings? Our children, I am sure, will owe us no gratitude on this account. They will not thank us for sacrifices, from which they at least will derive no positive advantage. Let us now consider what is the real operation of this great fund upon public credit, what immediate purpose it answers, and what is the final result of it. Why, sir, all we know with certainty is that the constant application of the produce to the purchase is just sufficient to keep the price of the 3 percents at sixty ; and, for this important service, the nation pays 8 millions a year. But what is the result of the service? To enable ministers to make new loans, on terms always said to be highly favourable to the public, that is, to furnish them with a facility to borrow more and more. This sinking fund then, in contradiction to its title and to all its pretensions, is in fact the medium not of real diminution, but of positive increase of debt. It is time for us to consider, whether that effect be worth purchasing at such an enormous expense. At all events I hope that cunning arguments and nice distinctions, such as we have heard heretofore on this particular point, will not be repeated verbatim by his majesty's present ministry. We have heard enough and too much from ministers of all sorts, of the promising, the prosperous, the flourishing state of the nation, with some slight and moderate abatements only, on account of a few temporary inconveniencies and transient difficulties, which they are too candid to deny. As long as existence can be held together, the patient is sure to hear nothing from the faculty, but compliments and congratulations on his florid looks and healthy appearance. Now what do all these Nattering indications consist in, and what do they demonstrate? Why, sir, without pushing the conclusion to all extremity, without saying or meaning that the case is desperate, I hold it more or less true in fact, that the bloated surface proves nothing but a failure in the stamina. When ever it bursts, you may possibly be relieved but it is full as likely you may expire. Now compare the evidence with the allegation In this metropolis, I know that there did never exist such a scene of expence and luxury, and of unbounded dissipation of fortune, as London exhibits. If extravagance and profusion are proofs of wealth, we need not look further. The proof is equal to the proposition, and exceeds it Reflecting men, I believe, will not trust implicitly to these appearances. In fact, they can only be accounted for by a glut of factitious riches. No man wastes a real property at this rate. No man parts with gold and silver with the same facility, with which he squanders a mere paper security, which he knows he cannot change into specie. The circulation of this paper however, as long as it lasts, gives life and activity to all the means of immediate enjoyment. It is true. They, who are satisfied with the present, are not likely to consider the consequence. Others perhaps may submit to be better taught by experience. The history of France furnishes an example in point, on a great but still on a very inferior scale. There never was a period of such extravagant expence and riotous profusion in Paris, as in the days that preceded the fall of the royal bank in 1719. France was deluged with paper as we are. Suddenly the credit of the bank failed. Down went the paper, down went Paris, and down went France^*. In time however, that great kingdom revived and rose out of its ashes, because it had resources within itself, which could not be annihilated. But our situation, it seems, on the whole is prosperous. We are overwhelmed with paper. There is no specie in circulation. Does any gentleman here receive a guinea in a thousand pounds in the collection of his rents? If you sell your house or your estate, in ^*" My intention is, to prove that an ill-concerted system of credit may bring ruin on a nation, although fraud be out of the question: and, if a nation be plunged into all the calamities, which a public bankruptcy can occasion, it is but a small consolation to be assured of the good intentions of those, who were the cause of it. On the 27th of Feb. 1720, an unit was published, forbidding any person to keep by them more than 500 livres in coin, (or 20 sterling.) This was plainly annulling the obligation in the bank paper, to pay to the bearer, on demand, the sum specified, in silver coin. On the 22d of May, a man might have starved with a. 100 millions of paper in his pocket." Stewart's Political (Economy, what coin are you paid for it? In notes of one kind or other, public or private, no matter which. These notes are value received to-day, and may be worth nothing to-morrow; literally nothing. Between the Property Tax invading us on one side, and the circulation of paper, not convertible into specie, on the other, does any man know what he is worth, or that he is worth any thing? But the power of parliament has interposed to protect the Bank of England from making good the fundamental conditions, on which they originally obtained, and, until the year 1797, held their charter. I know it. The legislature acquits them of their daily promise, still expressed in their notes, to pay so many pounds sterling on demand; unless the promise be performed by the exchange of one piece of paper for another. I know it is an act of power; which cannot be resisted. But is it an act of justice? Is the legislature of this country, or of any country, competent to deprive a real creditor, who has lent or sold a real property, of all remedy against the borrower or the buyer, if he will not accept of an imaginary payment in paper? If the sovereignty of government were vested in a single person, and the same act were done by that person, by what name should we describe him? But the nature of injustice is not altered, much less is it mended, by the numbers who concur in it. This overflow of paper, in universal circulation, has another very mischievous and universal effect. It operates like a tax, grinding the community without benefit to government, by raising the price or nominal value of every thing saleable in every transaction between man and man. I say you must stop the progress of these enormous evils. In a considerable degree, they spring from one cause, and they admit of but one remedy. Oblige the Bank of England to revert to their principles, to make good their charter, and to pay their promisory notes in specie. I do not confide in general descriptions of national prosperity. In spite of all that can be stated of a rich flourishing country, the disappearance of specie is a symptom of real decay; and there is a second, full as formidable as the first. I mean the amount of the poor-rates. What are we to think of the circumstances and prospects of a little kingdom, in which six millions sterling are annually raised for the support of the poor, who live by contribution, because they cannot subsist, as they ought to do, by labour? Will no man look forward to the consequences? They are not far off. Will no man help to save the country? or is it to be admitted that, in this state of things, we have nothing to fear, but from the possible success of an impossible invasion? I fit be true, that we still have plenty of wealth, and abundance of resources, a remedy for some of the evils I have stated, is now within reach, and ought to be applied. Let the bank resume their payments in specie. The exportation of bullion is not wanted on the Continent. We have no allies now, and I hope we have no subsidies to pay. This single act would correct many mischiefs, and stop many others; and the moment is favourable to the attempt. It it be impracticable, the case is desperate, and we may as well shut our eyes to it. This subject, sir, is not quite new to me in thought and speculation, though it is but lately that I have practically applied my mind to it. The most active part of my life has been employed in another department, in which I thought that my application and experience might have made me of some use. My right hon. friend (Mr. Fox) thinks otherwise, and accordingly he has dismissed and discarded me from that occupation. Up to the present time however, his public professions, repeated very lately in this house, would have supported any conclusion better than that, which he has drawn from them. "You are the fittest man in the world, and therefore I have taken special care that you shall have nothing to do with India." My answer is that, if India can do without me, I can do without India. My noble friend is now at the outset of a great career, in which he has already gained applause. For his own sake then, and much more, than for his own sake, for the service of a country, that wants and cannot spare the service of such men, I conjure him to resolve to do right in the first instance, without regard to immediate obstacles. Acting resolutely on that principle, he will find his difficulties diminish as he proceeds. If he takes another course, if he yields to the pretences of immediate facility or to the seduction of present convenience, the real difficulties of his situation will increase and accumulate, until they must be encountered, and cannot be overcome. There is nothing so easy as the entrance into a labyrinth, and nothing so difficult as to find your way out of it.

Mr. Secretary Fox

began by saying, that on the subject of his hon. friend's attention to the affairs of India, he could not be justly said to have deserted him, seeing that he had never given him any encouragement. He concurred in much of what had fallen from his hon. friend. He was ready to admit that he thought the provision respecting the exemptions productive of many inconveniences; but if that was not now for the first time introduced, but existed under the property tax act, it was not to be imputed to a defect in the system of his noble friend. There were some small annuities, which would be exempted, and others which would be entitled to an exemption only in part. On examination, it would be found that the arrangement proposed was not so very objectionable. For an illustration, he should consider only those who were exempted altogether: a person, for instance, might be in possession of an annuity granted by a nobleman or gentleman of fortune; it was only proposed that the amount of the duty should be deducted in the first instance by the person who paid it, and the annuitant would afterwards be allowed the full benefit of the exemptions belonging to his condition. The provision only required that the grantors of the annuities, which most of the nobility or men of great property usually were, should keep back the amount of the duty. The duke of Bedford and earl Spencer, as well as others, had many such annuities to pay. He had an opportunity of being acquainted with the difficulties that arose out of the manner of allowing the exemptions, from personal observations, and had stated the matter to the chancellor of the exchequer last year. It often happened, that poor persons, widows and others, possessed of small annuities, being entitled to exemptions, had to incur much trouble and expence in procuring their exemptions He should abstain, however, from pursuing this subject further. His noble friend, he was sure, would give the subject his whole attention, and provide a remedy. It was a subject which, in a great measure, belonged to the consideration of the bill in detail. And when that subject should be under discussion, no gentleman could confer a greater or more essential benefit on his country than by attending and giving the aid of his advice, in order to render the exemptions as little liable to trouble or expence as possible.—The next thing his hon. friend had touched upon was the unfunded debt. The first impression on his own mind had been the same as that of his hon. friend; but first impressions were often wrong. At first view it would appear extraordinary that an income of a million should be exempt from the tax. But on consideration he thought the unfunded debt might be exempted from the tax without inconvenience or loss. Exchequer bills were liable to be at a discount or premium. Their being exempt from the tax, of course was productive of an advantage to the public, as the government could dispose of them at a higher rate. His first view had leaned to the opinion entertained by the hon. gent., but on consulting with persons better acquainted with the subject, he was convinced that exchequer bills might be exempted from the tax, without any inconvenience or loss.—The next subject alluded to by the hon. gent., was one of the highest importance, namely, the Sinking Fund. His hon. friend had said, that all ministers were fond of it. It was well known to his hon. friend, however, that ever since its first establishment, he had been a friend to it. As to the merit of the measure, God forbid! that he should dispute it with any man. When it was considered what vast additions had then recently been made to the public debt; it would not be doubted that any administration must, after the American war, have resorted to some such system. But when a man had done a thing, and done it well, he ought to be allowed, for he was justly entitled to, his full praise for having so done. The hon. gent. had said that the only effect of the Sinking Fund had been to keep the 3 per cents at 60; and if it had done no more, that was an essential advantage; it kept up credit, diminished taxation, and lightened the burthens on the people. Besides, whatever kept down the interest of money, must, in a commercial nation, be of infinite service. The hon. gent. would be sensible of this from a little reflection. It was a matter of calculation, and might easily be brought to the result. If he were to take into his consideration the vast loans that had been negociated during the last war, and reflect what would have been the value of the 3 per cents. without a Sinking Fund, he would be sensible of this. Without a Sinking Fund they would have been down at 50, or suppose that too low, at 54 or 55; and on such enormous loans, what would have been lost both in capital add interest to the public? He was aware that many great and able persons differed with him on this subject, but whatever respect he might have for their opinions, they had neither convinced him nor excited any doubt in his mind.—In the latter part of his speech, his hon. friend had touched upon a most important subject, which it was not then a proper time to discuss. It might and would, however, hereafter be a fit subject for consideration. He was certain that the right hon. gent. who established this system, had some such period in his contemplation at some future day. Whilst in a state of war, the subject could not well be discussed by them. When the country should be in a situation of greater prosperity, in the enjoyment of peace, it might be proper, on a consideration of the state of the debt, of the amount of the Sinking Fund, and of the other circumstances of the country, to fix some limit; after which, the progress of the fund should be applied to the reduction of the public burthens. Another argument of his hon. friend, which was not distinguished for his usual accuracy, was, that a part of the sinking fund might be applied to the service of the present year. Why, he argued, should the fund be continued at 8 millions, when at 7 millions it would and had before kept the 3 per cents at 60? But, was the debt the same at the time when the fund it 7 millions kept the 3 per cents at 60? It was his opinion that if any part of the linking Fund should be diverted from its Present application, the 3 per cents could not be kept up to their present value. In general the house was disposed to indulge in great exultation when on the subject of our finances. For his own part, he was not disposed to give way to such feelings. He was sensible that our situation was one of great difficulty. They were in a situation to suffer heavy burthens themselves, and to impose them upon others. As to what his hon. friend had said about the provision for the poor, he thought it a subject deserving of investigation. That provision was proof that there was Something wrong in, he system, that every thing was not exactly square, but did not warrant the deduction of the hon. gent. As to the remedy minted out by his hon. friend, he perfectly agreed with him in his views on that subject, except that he did not think it the only remedy. He could see no reason why the issues in specie should not be resumed. He knew not what was intended on that head, but he must hear much stronger arguments than he had ever before heard, or his opinion would remain unaltered. He had thus gone through all the general topics touched upon by his hon. friend. As to what he had stated with respect to the property tax, he should only say, that his own great objection, and one which he had last year urged, was against the gradual increase of it. He thought it far better, that at the commencement of a war it should be carried to the full amount to which it would be necessary to carry it, than to increase it gradually. As he was on the subject of the war taxes, he should add, that the present administration found the system in effect. It would be madness in them to overturn it. It was his favourite plan, that at the commencement of a war, whatever war taxes should be thought necessary or desirable in the circumstances of the country, should be imposed at once for 4 or 5 years, to ascertain their operation, and not be raised from year to year. In this view the property tax now proposed had his complete approbation. The country wanted large taxes. He should not enter into the general merits of the budget, though he believed the taxes proposed by his noble friend were liable to as little objection as any other. He was sure his noble friend was entitled to his gratitude, and that of the country, for having undertaken the arduous duties of the office he filled under such circumstances of difficulty; and, though he assumed the office at, such an age, what passed on a former night skewed, that he had not accepted of a situation to which he was not fully competent.

Mr, Francis. —

My right hon. friend has been pleased to say, that, on the subject of my attention to the government of India and the affairs of the India company, he could not be justly said to have deserted me, because he never gave me any encouragement, I suppose he means that, being tired of the subject himself, at which I am not at all surprised, since no man could be more weary of it than myself, he thought it right to discourage his friends from persevering in that duty. This language, from any other person, would have more the appearance of a charge than a defence. He might possibly find motives for withdrawing from these discussions himself. Of that he is the best judge. But I defy him to state a reason, that will acquit him of all blame, for discouraging others, as he says, from giving their attention to so great a national concern as the government of India. Does he seriously mean that the situation of India ought to have been totally neglected, and by those particularly, who were best acquainted with it? For that purpose, the example was quite enough with out the precept. But it seems he gave me no previous encouragement. Very true within the last twelve months. But, even in that period, has he given me no subsequent approbation? And what is approbation of an act done, or of a course adopted, but an encouragement to proceed in it? I am not qualified to argue with him about distinctions, which neither of us understand. I adhere to his approbation, which I am sure he is too liberal and too honest to retract. On the 17th of January he told me in his own house and of his own accord, that he had now deliberately read my speech of the 5th of April 1805, with the same satisfaction, with which he heard it spoken, almost word for word as it is printed; that it was convincing and unanswerable, and that there could be no reply to it. My right hon. friend is not apt to give such commendation lightly. About the applause of such a man, if he were only my judge and not my friend, I cannot be indifferent. His praise is not only a reward, but a powerful incentive too to continue to deserve it.

Mr. Fox

declared, with uncommon emphasis, that what his hon. friend had stated of his opinion of the speech of his hon. friend, was strictly true; that he adhered to it still, and never would he retract one word of it.

Mr. Huskisson

did not think the advantageous bargains that were now made for loans ought to be attributed altogether to the sinking fund, but rather to the system of raising a great part of the supplies within the year. In the year 1798, the rapid accumulation of the public debt from the expences of the last war, rendered it necessary to act upon that wise and patriotic principle. In the year before that, a small loan could not be had on any better terms than an interest of 6l. 16s. 6. though the sinking fund had been in operation long before that time. The sinking fund added 1 per cent. to the capital of the debt; .but it had not then the effect the hon. gent. imputed to it, of keeping the stocks. at 60. That public benefit was therefore to be imputed, in a great measure, to the system of raising so much of the supplies within the. year.—with respect to the supposition that the interest on exchequer bills was not made productive to the property tax, he had to observe, that above half the outstanding exchequer bills were held by the bank, much to the public advantage, and of course did not escape the tax. The statement of an arrear of 5,800,000l. remaining from the last year had made an impression, as if the Ways and Means voted for that year had fallen unaccountably short, or the expences had far, exceeded the estimates; as if his late right hon. friend had shrunk from his duty, either in concealing the extent and amount of the services, or in exaggerating the probable produce of the public income. The deficiency in the land and malt was a regular and annual thing ever since the land and malt duty had been voted; therefore it was not to be charged as an unaccountable arrear in the estimates of the last year. The extra charge for ordnance was also an annual thing; the deficiency under this head in the last year, though so much as 561,000l., was short of the average deficiency. The amount of this deficiency in the preceding year was 693,000l. It was probable a deficiency to the same extent would occur at the close of this year, and the noble lord would do well to prepare himself to expect it. It would have been more correct, to have stated the charges which had been inaccurately, he was sure not invidiously, described as arrears, rather as extraordinary charges, not likely to occur again. Such was the million to the East-India Company: such the provision for lord Nelson's family, an instance similar to which had occurred but once in the last century ; such was the remuneration for the loss of the ship taken in the battle of Trafalgar, in which every one would readily concur.—Next, as to the subsidy. The statement of the noble lord, in speaking of the million required by him for this head of service, gave it to be understood, that the 3,500,000l voted for the service, had been previously expended. The fact was, however, that there was on the 5th of Jan. last, 1,080,000l of this sum in the exchequer, 500,000l untouched at Malta, and 200,000l at Hamburgh. And though 1,000,000l of what was in the exchequer had been since appropriated to navy services in the earl part of this year, it was not right to demand a fresh million without an explanation, as if the original grant had been expended under its proper head in the last year. The only case in which it could be charged, was the falling off of the consolidated fund. But it was probable, from the receipts of this quarter, that the surplus of 4,000,000l would be realized, The lat- ter, which had been calculated at 300,000l. had produced 380,000l It would tend much to give a fair view of the grants and expenditure of each year, if the accounts of both were made up to the same period, and the balances on hand carried to the credit of the next year, and the outstanding demands to the charge. At present the year of service ended on the 5th of Jan, and the year of receipt on the 5th of April following. He supposed this practice had originated in some years of great charge, when it was an object to have five quarters of receipt to meet the form of expenditure; but in fairness both ought to be reduced within the same limits, and he meant shortly to submit to the house some resolutions to that effect. The grants now voted were large; they were for the service of a whole year, and a great part of that year had already elapsed, and the charges incumbent on it had been in many respects defrayed. Without entitling the present administration to much credit for the economy of which they boasted, the grants now passed ought, under these circumstances, to carry them far into the next year. He had offered these observations not with a view to oppose the noble lord's propositions,.but to do away a wrong impression with respect to his late right hon. friend, the noble lord's predecessor. He complimented the noble lord on the vigour with which he called forth the energies and resources of the country, at a period requiring so much exertion. He congratulated the country on its resources being such as to preclude every idea of compromising its honour for a false and precarious security. We should not, he said, trust for our security to any thing but our own strength and our firmness, never building on that delusive forbearance, to reckon upon which was a confession of weakness, and to that foolish confidence, in which too many of the once independent nations of the Continent had fallen victims.

Lord Henry Petty

said, he had not described the deficiency it was necessary now to provide for, as having occurred last year, but as being to be provided for at the end of the last year. He was sorry he had not been in the house on Saturday when some discussion arose on this point He had hoped that the explanation given that day, and the time afforded for reflection since, would have prevented the subject from being renewed on Monday. If he had meant to make a matter of charge of this arrear, he would not have enume- rated the items of it, nor explained how it had arisen: he would have brought it forward in the aggregate, and included in it, as he might have done, much of the charges he had comprehended in the Unfunded Debt. He should state the arrears of grants for the service of the last year remaining on hand, 5th Jan. this year, and the demands outstanding against them, and in doing so he should still think himself justified in what he had said on a former night with respect to the treaties. He might even have put that in a stronger point of view, for the calculation was made in the prospect of success, and the provision which was not more than sufficient in the event of total failure, must have fallen far short in the event of the expected success. He then summed up the balances of grants on hand, on 5th Jan. which amounted to 2,655,803l.; and the demands outstanding against them, which amounted to 7,449,400l being an excess of demand of 4,793,597l He had merely stated, that these demands were outstanding, and to be provided for. The right hon. gent. who had preceded him, would have felt it his duty to act in the same way, under the same circumstances. If arrears were to be provided for, he would have felt the propriety of stating them to the house, as he had done; explaining the nature of them; and shewing, that they were not likely to recur again. The hon. gent. expressed a hope that the grants now proposed would, with the economy proposed by his majesty's present ministers, cover the expenses for a long period. He joined the hon. gent. in that hope; but he had to observe, that the estimates now brought forward were principally such as had been found in the offices. The late chancellor of the exchequer had introduced the system of war taxes with great effect; but like every thing else, this system was less perfect in the beginning. Now the tax was made to bear on double the number of persons; not poor persons, but persons well able to pay, but whom it had been in vain attempted to charge under the present acts. He owed it to the noble lord (Sidmouth) who had introduced the property tax, to say, that he had revived this great source of revenue after it had been absolutely worn out. The income tax had been mortgaged for 11 years to pay the interest of debts contracted during the late war. The noble lord had transferred these mortgages, and the tax on property was found a great and unencumbered resource at the commencement of the present war. The only alteration that was made now, was to remove the great difficulty that was created by the exemptions, and to allow the commissioners the proper means to make the tax productive. It was an object equally attended to, to afford the relief formerly granted by the exemptions with the greatest possible care and convenience. The small annuitants who were the first objects If this care, would have only to go before the next magistrate, and exhibit their proofs; the magistrate would immediately grant the certificate, on the transmission of which the commissioners would immediately refund. Small tradesmen would be considered in the next degree to small annuitants; all those who had least means of repairing any loss, would be the first considered.—With respect to the observations of his hon. friend on the restriction of the cash payments at the bank, he agreed that things could not be said to be in their proper situation as long as that restriction continued: but our situation was very different from that of France at the time of the Mississippi scheme. With respect to the Bank Restrictions, said the noble lord, I perfectly agree with my hon. friend, that they should not be continued longer than necessity requires, and that their removal should be constantly held in view. The Bank directors have not, on this subject, received any pledge from his majesty's ministers; and I must own that their resuming their payments in specie would give myself, for one, a more cheering idea of the increasing prosperity of the country. With respect, however, to the sinking fund, I cannot agree with my hon. friend; and the very argument which he has held against it is, with me, the strongest in its favour. If its effect be to keep the 3 per cent. consols at 60, surely this it a positive advantage to the public, and in more ways than one. It keeps down the interest of money, enables government to make loans on more advantageous terms, and supports that confidence and credit which is so essential to the well-being of this great commercial nation. My hon. friend asks, why not apply it to the diminution of the burthens of the people? I will give him an explicit answer. It is for the same reason that I would not expend my capital on my subsistence. In the one case as in the other, I would look forward to the enjoyment of the same supply, and the same support, 20 or 30 years hence. I allow that there is a relative proportion be- tweed the sinking fund and the national debt, which it may be useful not to go beyond; and this the right hon. founder of it, I believe, had in contemplation; but it will be some time before that proportion can be established, at least while we continue under the necessity of being so frequently at war. The sinking fund I regard as a pledge of public faith, which ought to remain untouched, and almost unlooked at, and kept sacred for that single purpose for which it was originally instituted. It is this eminent regard to principle, which has always upheld the character and the power of this nation, and will long continue to uphold them. I have to regret that, notwithstanding every exertion that can be made, the taxes must inevitably fall heavy on some parts of the community. All that I can promise, for myself, is, that I shall, in one respect at least, follow the advice of my hon. friend, of listening to all quarters and to all persons, and particularly to one so respectable as my hon. friend himself.

Lord Castlereagh rose

and spoke as follows:—Sir; I am desirous, on the present occasion, of troubling the house with some general observations on the financial arrangements for the year. Approving as I do of the principle upon which the noble lord has framed his budget, namely, that of making an effort to raise a further proportion of the supplies within the year, and not seeing any prominent grounds of objection to the particular taxes he has proposed, I have been solicitous to reserve any points of difference till a later stage, when I might state what occurred to me more particularly, in objection to the very unusual course parliament has been called on to adopt on the present occasion, viz. that of determining on the ways and means for the year before the army has been voted; I am not wishing to interrupt the unanimity which it is my wish should prevail on the main question.—So far as this manly and wise policy, which the noble lord has acted upon, can carry with it any degree of impopularity, I shall be most ready to share it. with him, and deem it due to him distinctly to express my persuasion that, had the late government continued office, the people would have been called on to submit to burthens of equal magnitude.—Before I proceed to the point to. which I principally rose to advert, I must shortly take notice of what has this night fallen from the noble lord, imputing to my late right hon. friend (Mr. Pitt) the not having made an adequate provision, in the course of the last year, for the public expenditure; the noble lord having to-night disclaimed any intention of charging, as matter of blame to the right hon. the chancellor of the exchequer, the not having provided in the ways and means of last year for the 5,800,000l. which in his first statement his lordship denominated as arrears; and my right hon. friend (Mr. Huskisson) having clearly explained to the house, that this sum consisted entirely either of temporary and incidental charges, totally unconnected with the service of last year, or of charges the provision for which by the constant practice of parliament ought to be made in the present and not in the past year, I have nothing further to add on that subject, the apparently injurious tendency of the statement having been sufficiently explained and disavowed.—It is only now necessary to notice the charge made by the noble lord on this night, which appears to me not less unfounded, though deliberately brought forward. He has attempted to found a similar charge of defective provision, by comparing the unexpended grants of last year with the demands outstanding and unprovided for on the 5th Jan. 1806. In stating the unexpended grants, he has undervalued, I apprehend, the amount, by not giving credit for 890,000l. under the head of army in Ireland, and 500,000l. under that of vote of credit, transfers to navy, and other items, which will carry the remains unexpended of last year considerably above 3,000,000l., against which I am not aware of any charge which can be considered in fairness as a set-off, except the arrears of subsidy of 1,000,000l., —The noble lord's demands outstanding are composed of claims not demandable, and which could not be paid if the funds were forthcoming, viz. of an increase of 2,600,000l. navy debt, being wages, &c. owing to the crews of ships on foreign service; a description of demand which must accumulate during a war. The remainder are demands under the head of army ordnance, and barracks, preferred, but not examined or allowed, and consequently not in a state for liquidation. It is obvious that claims of this description, varying in amount, must remain a floating charge from one year to another. It never has been, or ought to be the practice of parliament, to provide for demands in this shape where there was no special ground to suppose that payment could be made on them within the year. The provision has always been framed upon an estimate of the pro- bable charge, strictly so called, of each year respectively; and the funds of the year have been applied to defray such charges of the last, as could not come into a course of payment till the current year, leaving the corresponding demands to be issued in the following year.—The noble lord has chosen to make his attack on grounds which will furnish the same means of convicting himself, and hereafter indeed every past or future chancellor of the exchequer who does not think fit to waste the public money by raising a larger amount within the year than can possibly be applied.—I shall close this part of the subject by observing, that the ways and means of last year unexpended, will, I am persuaded, be found very largely to exceed any demands that can fairly be set against them; and I therefore hope the noble lord will be prepared in a future year to distinguish the actual amount from what he now raises, and account for the whole, before he takes credit for any peculiar economy, if it should be found that a large sum remains unexpended at the close of the year.—I shall now proceed to state my objections to the course of our proceedings, not with any view to impede the grants in progress, but to take such notice of what appears to me to be a serious departure from the constitutional practice of parliament upon no case of necessity or adequate expediency first stated to the house, as may protect us hereafter against the repetition of so injurious a proceeding.—The noble lord has endeavoured to contend, that, provided money raised upon the subject does not pass from under the controul of this house, and provided the votes in appropriation of such monies to particular services do not exceed the quantum of supply previously voted by the house, every requisite principle is satisfied. In this I must differ from the noble lord. There are two principles in themselves perfectly distinct; the one, that the public money shall not be applied without the express consent of parliament; the other, that parliament shall not burthen the people unnecessarily, and consequently shall neither by loans or taxes, impose burthens in a committee of ways and means till the necessity for them has been ascertained by previous votes in the committee of supply. —In support of this doctrine, founded equally in good sense as in parliamentary usage, I beg to read to the house the opinion of Mr. Hatsell: — ?The object of the committee of ways and means as is ex- pressed in the title of it, to find out modes of raising the supply which the house, upon resolutions reported from the Committee of Supply, and agreed to, have granted to his majesty; and the first consideration attending this proceeding is, that the money proposed to be raised upon the subject by loans or taxes, or any other mode, should not exceed the. sum already granted in the Committee of Supply. It is for this reason incumbent upon the chancellor of the exchequer, or whatever member of the house of commons proposes the ways and means for raising money for the service of the current year, to explain and shew to the house, by a detail of the sums granted for the several services, that the amount of those sums will be a sufficient justification in point of quantity, to the committee of ways and means, to adopt such measures and impose such taxes, as shall be then recommended to them; and this proceeding (arising out of that regard and attention which the house of commons ought at all times to shew towards the people, that the burthens imposed upon them may not be larger than the public exigencies require) ought for this reason, if for no other, to be most strictly adhered to."—Such being indisputably the true principle, I am not one of those who will ever contend, that what was meant as a protection and security for the people, shall be rendered prejudicial to their interests by its unqualified and strict application in all cases. I am ready to admit that a rigid adherence to his principle has not and cannot in all cases be observed; but what I do contend is, that a departure from it to the extent low proposed, and upon no assigned ground whatever, cannot possibly be justified. The surplus of the consolidated fund, which it is the policy of parliament, for many reasons, to uphold, is a small departure from the strictness of the principle. The imposing war taxes to the amount hitherto of fourteen and now of twenty millions annual produce, is certainly a greater; but still this is keeping largely within the obvious and necessary expenditure of the year, and is. adopted upon distinct consideration of the wisest policy.—But when the noble lord proceeds to raise the entire residue of he funds for the year, before the house has determined on the amount of the army; when we are called upon to assume that what is now to be entirely new-modelled is to cost neither more nor less than the exploded and condemned army of last year,and this upon the mere personal dictum of the chancellor of the exchequer, without even an estimate or account being laid on the table, it must be admitted that we are surrendering our judgment, and proceeding merely upon confidence: the possible inconveniences are obvious; supposing the noble lord should have taken 5 millions more than the house may hereafter think fit to vote in supply, the people are in so much unnecessarily burthened. Supposing he should have taken 5 millions less than, in the view of parliament, the public exigencies may require, can he, after having made his loan and taught the contractors to expect, if not given them a pledge, that no more money would be raised, provide the necessary means with the same convenience and advantage to the public ? The noble lord not having offered a single observation to the house to justify this proceeding even on grounds of expediency, I can only state, that those which obviously suggest themselves as having occasioned it, are not in my judgment, as at present informed, satisfactory; and first, the delay of the right hon. gent's plan for the reform of the army. It will be for us hereafter to judge how far this mighty change, which is to throw our financial as well as military system out of its course, was called for either by the defects of the existing system, or the merits of that which is to succeed it.—The other explanation which occurs is, the possible wants of the treasury as necessitating this early loan, on the policy of contracting for which at the precise period it took place, I shall feel it, my duty to state some doubts. How long the exchequer could have carried on the public service without this aid, it is not possible for me with precision to judge; but I have the noble lord's own authority for supposing that no money was wanting sooner than the 18th of April, that being the day on which I understand he at first stated to the contractors, that he should be satisfied to receive the first instalment. Having determined to make his bargain on the 30th March, and having, declared to parliament his purpose of opening his budget on that day, upon learning from the contractors what was in itself pretty obvious, that this long interval, wholly unexampled in contracts for loans, was extremely objectionable to them, as leaving them altogether at the mercy of their subscribers, in case of any intermediate fall in the market, his lordship was obliged to change his plan and take the first payment on the 6th April when the market is peculiarly unfavourable for such an operation. The bargain made is certainly in itself an advantageous one, generally speaking, for the public; but as terms are relatively good or bad, I am not prepared to say that somewhat better terms might not have been obtained, if this first instalment of 2,000,000l had been to be paid in at the time the noble lord first intended, and subsequent to the April dividends amounting to 6,000,000l. had found their way into circulation.—I am sure, if either by accelerating the estimates for the army, or postponing the making the loan, the business could have been conducted in its usual course, the house ought to have been saved from the painful dilemma in which it is now placed, of either appearing to impede the provision for the public service, or adopting, for the first time since the revolution, a course of. proceeding in breach of the most important maxims of parliamentary practice; for although the house has frequently permitted the chancellor of the exchequer to provide for probable expenditure not admitting of precise estimate, such as army extraordinaries and subsidies, though not previously voted in the Committee of Supply, they never did deliberately before acquiesce in his providing for the army at large before the estimates were considered and voted in the committee of supply; and I trust I have stated enough to the house to protect us against a recurrence to such practices in future.—Before I sit down, I cannot avoid shortly adverting to the gloomy picture drawn by an hon. gent. (Mr. Francis) early in the debate, of the declining and impoverished state of the country. I am perfectly ready to admit that the people are necessarily called upon to submit to heavy. burthens, but I can by no means subscribe to his opinion that they seem likely to sink under them. The hon. gent. has had recourse to the poor-laws, and the sum annually applied to this purpose, as a proof of our poverty. It is rather a singular mode of proving his proposition, to refer to a system which has grown out of the affluence and liberality of the nation, and which, however liable to abuse, is generally considered as, justifying a very different conclusion. In stating the increase of this charge, he seems to forget, that without any increase in the proportion of the poor receiving relief to the other part of the community, they must increase in number as the population advances, and the charge of relieving the same number of poor must also increase in proportion as all the articles of food, &c. advance in price.—I Certainly do not deny that the pressure of taxes is severe, but I do assert that it is not such as to check or disturb in any respect the industry, and consequently the prosperity of the country. — If the hon. gent. wishes to know what an impoverished and declining Country is, let him refer back to the period when my late right hon. friend (Mr. Pitt) first took charge of the finances of the country in 1784. The manufactures and commerce declining in proportion as burthens were imposed, even new taxes counteracting those in existence, and the whole falling short in produce of what they were taken at, and with difficulty providing for the permanent charge of the debt.—We now find, notwithstanding the taxes are since increased so much in amount, that both the old and new duties are increasing every year in amount, that hardly a tax has been laid which has not exceeded the estimate of its produce, and the documents before parliament indisputably prove, that our agriculture, manufactures, and commerce are extending themselves rapidly even in the midst of war.—We have also in later years been able to adopt the salutary principle of raising a large proportion of our supplies within the year (including the war taxes now proposed) to an extent nearly of one half of our war expenditure; an effort which could only be made by a country both highly affluent and prosperous, whilst the sinking fund, already amounting to about eight millions a year, gives us every reason to hope that the moment is not far distant when the comparatively small increase of debt which now takes place may be prevented even in war, and its rapid liquidation looked to with confidence on the return of peace.—The noble lord well described the value of this institution to the public on a former night, by stating it as his persuasion, that, had the sinking fund on its present principles not been established in 1786, we must ever since have made our loans on terms so ruinous as to have incurred an annual charge for interest alone fully equal to what now covers both the interest and sinking fund of the public debt. It may therefore be fairly said, that a perpetual annuity of 8 millions a year has been thereby saved to the nation, which after liquidating the principal is revertible to them.—The justice and gratitude of parliament have left nothing to his friends to desire on this head, but surely a prouder monument was never raised by the wisdom and exertions of an individual to his own fame, than this single measure, established and inviolably adhered to through times of the utmost difficulty.— Can it, then, be said that the country does not exhibit at this moment the most convincing signs of wealth and prosperity? If the people are heavily burthened, they bear it with fortitude and good will, because they feel it it the necessary consequence of the efforts which they are called upon to make for their own preservation against the common enemy. Heavy as the pressure is, can the hon. gent. recollect any period in the history of the country when discontent was less apparent, or when the nation submitted with more marks of manliness and even satisfaction to every sacrifice the public exigency has imposed? Never did any ministers succeed to a government when that greatest of all resources and support, namely the public mind, was in a more happy temper to aid them in surmounting the difficulties with which they have to contend; never did any ministers find the country on their coming into office more truly prosperous, its revenue more productive, or its credit higher. That such was the state of the navy I am sure they will not deny, and I shall be prepared to maintain, when that subject conies regularly into discussion, that the same may be asserted with not less truth with respect to the army. Finding all the main features of our national strength thus vigorous and entire, I trust they will continue to administer them upon those principles by which they have been hitherto preserved, improved, and upheld. The noble lord has done himself honour by the course he has pursued in his present budget. The despondency of the hon. gent. will not, I trust, discourage him from continuing to tread in the path which his predecessor has marked out for him. So long as he perseveres in doing so, and as it shall be the principle of the government to maintain with firmness that system upon which their predecessors have acted, the noble lord will find me anxious to smooth his difficulties and to afford him my cordial support.

Mr. Vansittart

observed, that the general approbation of the plan of taxation of his noble friend rendered it unnecessary to say much oil the outline of it; and it must meet the particular approbation of those who admired the system of the late right hon. chancellor of the exchequer, inasmuch as it was following up his system of war taxes—a character for whom he had the highest respect, and whose loss he, in common with the house, deplored. He admitted, also, the high authority of Mr. Hatsell, whose book had been quoted by the noble lord on the other side of the house, the effect of which was, that the Ways and Means should never exceed the supply. That was perfectly constitutional doctrine. But the answer to the noble lord who had made that quotation, from that most undoubted constitutional authority, was, that, in this case, the Ways and Means already voted did not amount to the supplies by several millions, when the matter came properly to be explained, in a constitutional sense; because none could be called taxes, among the ways and means, until they were appropriated by parliament; and in that sense the supplies already voted exceeded the ways and means by several millions. As to voting the ways and means before the army was voted, it must be recollected, that we had an army estimate already voted for 5 months; and as to that which was now proposed, there was a precedent for it in the vote of the navy in the year 1802, when a vote was first for four months, then for two, and then for the remainder of the year; upon which occasion he had the honour of moving the resolutions, which he read now to the house to confirm his statement. He then proceeded to shew the advantages of applying the system of war taxes to the exigency of our affairs, the effect of which was almost incredible, and for adopting which his noble friend was entitled to a proportionate share of credit. This was a system which commenced with the late war; he would venture to assert the effect had been, that, At the close of the present war, there was a saving to the public of 80 millions of capital, and about 3 ½ millions of permanent taxes; and if adopted at the commencement of the war preceding, the public would have been relieved of 200 millions capital, and 8 millions a year permanent taxes; and therefore there was no difficulty in agreeing to his noble friend's system of war taxes, for the purpose of preventing the accumulation of our debt.

Mr. Rose

maintained, that notwithstanding every thing which had been endeavoured to be argued to the contrary, the noble lord had certainly violated the principle of the constitution of this country, as established in the system of proposing to the house of commons the ways and means of the year; because he had proposed the ways and means before the amount of the supplies were known, which must be the case until it was known what our army was to be. It was said, that the produce of the war taxes were so appropriated, that they could not be diverted from their intended purpose; but it was not so in point of fact; for as to appropriation, the moment these taxes were voted, they were as much under the will of the lords of the treasury, and at their command, as any other sum of money voted by parliament for the public service; and therefore this measure, as far as it went, was a direct violation of the constitutional principle, which provided that the ways and means should not be voted until the whole of the supplies were known; and this was done without any ground whatever for it. These ways and means should never be voted before the army estimates had been voted in a committee of supply; it never had been done in any instance since the revolution. He must repeat, that the thing was never attempted before, since the revolution, except in the instance quoted by the hon. gent. who had just spoken, and which he stated to have taken place on his own motion in 1802, which ought not to be considered as a precedent, for it was a thing of which the house did not happen to take a proper notice, and it was hardly right for the hon. gent. to be the author of a bad precedent; and this shewed the propriety of the house never enduring the same unconstitutional measure again; and this was all he should say on that head, except expressing a hope that such a thing would never be attempted again by any minister. As to the taxes, he desired to be understood as not intending to throw any difficulties in the way of government; for he had no wish to oppose one of them, nor should he do so when the bills were brought in; he thought it right, however, that the noble lord might hear what he had to say upon them; then he might turn them in his mind in the course of their progress, and judge how far any of his arguments ought to have any weight. In the first place, the tax on wine, he was confirmed, would not produce what it was estimated at. It was proposed to be made permanent for the war by Mr. Pitt; but he did not apply it to the payment of the interest of the debt, altho' he considered it as made permanent as a mere war tax; it had increased at first, but had fallen off; and he was aware it would not produce what it was taken at. He spoke from documents which could not mislead him on this subject; he believed, that instead of taking it at 500,000l. it would be wiser to take it at 300,000l. The tax on iron was one which Mr. Pitt had in contemplation; but it would have the effect of diminishing the produce of other articles. He spoke on this subject from the best information; for he had, under the direction of Mr. Pitt, possessed himself of information from every furnace in the kingdom; and the papers were at the service of the noble lord, as was every other information he possessed; for his object was to serve his country to the utmost of his power, and not to thwart any measures taken for its support. As to the tax on appraisements, that had also been proposed to Mr. Pitt, but it had been given up as a thing likely to be too unproductive to be entertained. With regard to the tax on tea, there were really serious objsctions taken to it by Mr. Pitt, particularly on the lower sorts of it, for it was, in general, used with the poorer sort of people, and this he knew from personal experience; he knew that the mass of the poorer classes not only took tea morning and evening, but also very often for their dinner; and this made Mr. Pitt very unwilling to make it the subject of taxation. As to the article of tobacco, it would produce a great deal of money, for there was a large consumption of it; but here, again, it should be remembered, that the value of the article itself was about 6d. a pound; there was already a duty of 1s. 7d upon it, and this additional 6d. would make the duty four times the value of the article, a great temptation to smuggling, certainly; the facility to which was the greater, as it was an article easily carried on horseback. There were many other observations which he might make on other articles of taxation proposed by the noble lord; but he should not make them, because his object was to lend all the aid in his power to government, instead of obstructing it. He then proceeded to observe, that until lately, that is, long within his own memory, no attempt was made to bring the public accounts of this country into any thing like form or system. He wished the house to understand the situation in which Mr. Pitt found the finances [...] this country, and the situation in which he left them. A committee was appointed some years ago, at the head of which was a very respectable gentleman, Mr. Pitt, afterwards lord Camelford; and other men of the first talents, and to whom the house looked up, were on that committee,—the member for Salisbury, and the member for Hertford; and an investigation of the public accounts was then set on foot. That committee reported to the house the taxes then imposed, and the produce of them; and as they thought it an object for the house to consider, whether the taxes of that year had any effect on former taxes, they called for an account of the other; but what was most surprising, they did not cast up the totals, and compare the taxes of the year with those which had preceded them; if they had, they would have found that the taxes of that year amounted to one million less than those of the preceding year, although 700,000l. had been added to the taxation of that year; this was in the year 1782. But when Mr. Pitt came into power, he put the finances into a regular state. The first step he took was to move the house, for a committee to consider the state of the finance of the country, and to bring it into a proper method; the chairman of the committee was a noble lord (Grenville), now at the head of the treasury, a more fit person than whom he did not believe existed, either for that situation, or the present exalted one which he now filled, and whose appointment gave him sincere pleasure. Under that noble lord, was made a report, which brought forward the true state of the finance of the country, and the country benefited much by the labours of that intelligent committee. At the end of 6 years, another committee was appointed, at the head of which was lord Harrowby, whose labours were also abundantly useful. At the end of six years afterwards, another committee was appointed, in which the present speaker of the house of commons presided; and he should not be suspected of flattery when he said that of all the reports he ever saw, this was the best, and indeed it would have done credit to the wisest man that ever considered the subject of finance, and by which any men of common understanding might understand the subject of the finance of this country. All this was under the auspices of Mr. Pitt, and was highly creditable to his memory. As to the subject of the civil list, he was sorry that what the noble lord said on that subject had made the impression which it did, for he was confident the noble lord intended nothing unfavourable from that quarter to be felt by the house, and indeed the arrears had arisen from causes which were unavoidable; and it was not to be forgotten that his majesty had, of his own royal grace, given to the public one million, which was entirely his own. As to the subject of poor-rates, which had been brought forward, and stated at six millions annually, he was not aware that the subject was to have been mentioned, otherwise he would have turned, in a minute, to an exact account of it; he could however, assure the house, from a recollection which did not deceive him, that the amount was not quite 5 millions; a large sum, however, he admitted, but which might be considerably diminished by finding out employment for paupers; this was an interesting subject, worthy of great attention; he had turned his thoughts a great deal to it. An attempt had been made to provide a remedy; but the party endeavouring had aimed at too much, and met the fate of those who aim at too much; the subject, however, should not be despaired of, but pursued, for he was confident that much amelioration was practicable in that system. He then took a view of the sinking fund. The first person who applied a sinking fund to the finance of this country was lord Oxford, when he was a commoner, and so much applause attended him for that measure, that in his patent of peerage it was stated, that he was created a peer for it. It ended, however, in the South-sea bubble, after 500,000l. had been laid out upon it. The next application of a sinking fund was by sir R. Walpole; but afterwards he delivered it up in the time of peace, after it had paid one million and an half; but the real sinking fund deserving that name, was the sinking fund of Mr. Pitt; it might be said to have been invented by him. It was said by the right hon. gent. (Mr. Fox), that after the American war, any administration, whatever the plans of policy it might have entertained, must have adopted a sinking fund. He did not know what any administration might have done; but this he knew, that nobody ever did it as it should be done but Mr. Pitt, and by which he furnished this country with a permanent revenue out of that which did not deserve the name of a revenue; for when Mr. Pitt came into power, the finances of the country were only just sufficient to pay the interest of the debt, leaving nothing for any other expenditure: and in two years from that time, which was from 1784 to 1786, Mr. Pitt established a sinking fund of one million, which he kept sacred, until by its im- mense effect every man had become its admirer. Having said so much on these topics, he should make an observation or two on others, and that by way of dispelling all ideas of gloom as to the situation of our affairs, and for this again we were indebted to Mr. Pitt, for, during his administration, the number of the ships of the enemy taken by us were actually more than the whole number taken before that time, since time revolution, notwithstanding the wars in which we had been engaged, and in which we had acquired so much glory. Putting them all together, they would not amount to what had been done in the administration of Mr. Pitt, in which no less than 110 men of war had been captured, and the possessions of the French had been taken in the East and West Indies: almost all their colonies had become ours. We had never once been defeated in any one engagement, but had been victorious every where, our arms triumphant in every part of the world. All this during the administration of Mr. Pitt, and all this while too our revenue was in a condition infinitely more flourishing than ever, and was made the astonishment of the world, as well as the state of our trade and commerce; and our navigation extended beyond the example of any nation on the face of the globe. He said these things as the due reward of Mr. Pitt. He did not say that the situation of the present chancellor of the exchequer was not arduous; he knew it was so, but it should not be increased by any captious opposition by him; on the contrary, he should be glad to assist him in every thing in ins power; and he believed he possessed some information which might be useful to that noble lord on many of the topics to which he had been alluding. He could not, however, do better than follow the system laid down for him by his predecessor in office, Mr. Pitt. He wished the present administration to thrive; and he wished that, at the end of their career, whenever that might be, they might be able to render to their country as good an account of their labours in its service, as had been done by Mr. Pitt; and an higher honour they could never obtain; that they might obtain it, was his hearty wish.

Lord Henry Petty

explained what he said on the subject of the arrears of the civil list, in which, he said, it was in the recollection of the house, whether he did not most distinctly state the arrears of the civil list to have arisen from matters which were unavoidable, and whether he had not also stated his maj.'s gracious disposition in bringing forward a million to the public service.

Mr. Long

trespassed upon the time of the house but to reply to an allusion made by a noble lord, in an early stage of the debate, that he (Mr. L.) had made a charge against that noble lord, in his absence on a previous evening, of unhandsomely and unjustly attributing to the late chancellor of the exchequer the leaving great arrears of revenue to be provided for by his successor. He had made no charge of illiberality against the noble lord, but had merely attempted a vindication of his predecessor. The arrears which now presented themselves in the public accounts, were not the accumulation of last year, but arose from deficiencies that had been regularly carried forward from year to year, and the amount of which had been, in most years, increased by additional items; though at the present time, they were not larger than the outstanding demands of last year.

Mr. Johnstone

expressed his apprehensions that neither the financial estimates of the noble lord would be so productive, nor the expences of the war so limited as his statements alleged. He well remembered that, in a former year of the war, a right hon. gent. now a noble peer (lord Sidmouth) had stated to the house, that, under the aid of the sinking fund, the, war might be carried on at an annual expence of 27 millions, without additional burthens on the country; and yet experience had shown, that it exceeded that estimate by nearly 20 millions. He observed, that the debate of this night was for the most part a debate of paradoxes; but the most extraordinary of them all was the argument of the right hon. secretary (Mr. Fox) in respect to the property tax, namely, that the people would be better pleased to carry up the impost to what he was pleased to call "its natural limits," and be taxed ten per cent. at once, than have the charge gradually increased every year; but he believed, if the right hon. gent. had spoken this night from that side of the house where he had been so long in the habit of maintaining other opinions, even with the whole force of his great talents, and all his powers of eloquence, he would have found the strength of language sinking under his exertions, in ridiculing such an argument coming from any minister to whom he might have been opposed.

Mr. Hiley Addington rose

to express his astonishment at what had fallen from the hon. member, in allusion to a declaration made upon a former occasion by a noble relation of his, not now present to defend himself; more especially as he recollected that to a similar mistake of that hon. gent. upon the very same ground, his noble relation had given an explanation totally different, and such as he conceives satisfactory, and corrective to the hon. gent.'s mistake. On the contrary, his noble relation had said, that if the expences of the war did not exceed 27 millions a year, that then he should be enabled still to continue the reduction of the public debt by continuing the annual contribution to the sinking fund, without any additional burthen on the country. But it was impossible for him to say what should be the limits of expenditure in a war of such indefinite magnitude.

Mr. Sturges Bourne

made no opposition to the taxes proposed, but thought one argument of a right hon. secretary, in respect to the property tax, rather extraordinary, and the very reverse of what he always conceived to be that right hon. gent.'s opinion of that tax. He had always understood him to have been averse to the tax altogether, and thought he recollected him to have called it" an inquisitionary tax," or some such epithet. He understood him last year as having violently opposed a small increase of the tax; but never till that night, did he understand the right hon. gent.'s objection to that increase, merely because it was too small; or to the tax itself, only because it was not doubled in the first instance, in order thus to render it more acceptable to the people.

Mr. Ward

begged the noble chancellor of the exchequer, to explain one expression in his statement, on a former night, respecting the subsidiary treaty, which he stated to be so complex and indefinite, as not to afford the means of ascertaining its extent, or whether the million, which he claimed as an arrear on that account, was sufficient. The hon. gent. declared, that, in his mind, nothing could be more clear and simple, than the terms of the treaty. It stipulated to allow to our allies, 12l. 10s per man, for every man brought into the field, and British pay from the time they quitted their own frontier till they returned to the same. Possibly the noble lord's difficulty arose from his not being able to ascertain what num- ber had returned to their own frontier; or that the commissaries who, as it was stipulated, should attend and ascertain the number of troops in the field, had not so attended; otherwise he could not understand where the difficulty lay.

Lord Henry Petty

answered, that the terms, as expressed in the treaty, did not afford the means of a clear elucidation.

Mr. Brooke,

agreeably to the notice he had given on Saturday, rose to oppose the tax on sugars, and said, that on whichever side of the house he might sit, he should always oppose every tax that appeared to him oppressive on the commerce of the country, and such he conceived to be that now proposed on Sugars; and which, he was convinced, must fall on the planter, and not on the consumer; for, from the first tax imposed this war, through all the successive increases, and up to the present proposition, which was to complete a rise of the duty to 10s. per cwt. the gazette prices of sugars had fallen, instead of being raised thereby, so that the loss fell wholly upon the planter, who was willing to pay as much as any other subject towards the war, but by this means would pay infinitely more.

Mr. Vansittart

admitted, that sometimes under the circumstances of a glutted market, and no foreign demands for sugars, this was the complexion which the circumstances of the sugar trade bore. However he promised that some investigation should take place, and that he should move for an account of the average gazette prices of sugar for some years back, in order to form an accurate estimate of the facts.

Mr. Babington

contested the justice of the tax on property. It would be impossible for men of small incomes to set themselves right without infringing on their capital. Nothing he believed would be more difficult than to persuade people in the country, of the propriety of compelling a man who had 50. a year to pay a tax of 5l while a man of 45l. a year wholly escaped.

Mr. Vansittart

defended the principle of the tax. The hon. gent. had misapprehended it. It was not intended, that the person whose income was but 50l. a year, should pay at the rate of 10 per cent. The scale would begin at a low per-centage at 50l., and proceed by arithmetical progression till it arrived at 100l. when the highest rate of 10 per cent. would begin.—The resolutions were then separately read and agreed to, and bills ordered accordingly.