| Malt and Personal Estate Duties | 2,750,000 | |
| Grants from Proceeds of Ships cap-[...]tured prior to the War | 1,000,000 | |
| Lottery | 380,000 |
| Surplus of Consolidated Fund to 5th[...] April, 1807 | 3,500,000 | |
| War Taxes | 19,500,000 | |
| Deduct, as likely to be[...] outstanding at 5th April,[...] 1807 | 1,500,000 | |
| 18,000,000 | ||
| Loan | 18,000,000 | |
| £.43,630,000 |
§ After this recapitulation, said the noble lord, I have to express my sincere wish that I could follow up this statement by adding, that the burthens which I have now felt it my duty to propose are light; but, as I do not think so, I will not so represent them. At the same time, I should think ill of myself by thinking meanly of my country, if I could entertain a doubt that they will be supported with that constancy and fortitude, which are the most distinguished features in the character of any country, but which I may venture to say are prominent in this. I feel myself justified in stating, that if the people of this country would have borne these burthens with cheerfulness formerly, they have now additional motives to do so— now that we are placed in a crisis of our affairs— now that by the failure of our hopes from the co-operation of allies on the Continent, we are left to our own resources and to our own exertions. In such a moment, the people of this country will call forth all their energy, and shew themselves equal to any difficulties with which they may have to contend. As they feel too that they will be called upon to bear those burthens only so long as the war is necessary, so they must know that if it is necessary the contest involves in it every thing they hold dear as individuals and as a nation. They will bear these burthens the more cheerfully too, feeling a confidence that what they contribute will be strictly applied and economically administered to the purposes for which it is given. They know that if any set of men ever were pledged to economical government, it is the present ministers, and if they swerve from that pledge, they. must retire from office, carrying with them their own condemnation and disgrace. The public, however, feel this confidence, both from the character of the present ministers and from the benefits lately derived from enquiry, particularly from the labours of the naval commissioners. These things infuse confidence into the people, and they will support ministers in the economy they wish 575 to practise. In the office I have the honour to fill, I have already experienced those advantages, and from the commission of military enquiry, emulating the conduct of the other commission, I trust that farther benefits will be obtained. Confident I am that ministers will be desirous to follow up the plans and improvements which these enquiries may suggest. In the mean time I am happy to say that steps are taking to recover the sums lost to the public by malversations in the West Indies, and measures are adopted to put a stop to those scenes of fraud, perjury, and peculation, which have too long prevailed. Ministers are doing, and will do their duty with that firmness, by which alone the evils meant to be corrected can be met and subdued; and seeing this, the people will be still farther disposed to bear their burthens with cheerfulness, and to exert that fortitude and courage they have so often displayed. If there be any thing in the statements I have made, in which I feel pride, it is that there is no concealment in them. The notoriety and publicity of our public accounts and financial transactions is one great cause of the public credit. That publicity it shall be my endeavour, as far as my humble efforts can go, to promote. It is recorded of an old Roman moralist, that he wished to build his house in such a manner that it should be open to the view of all, and that his conduct might be liable to the inspection and censure of his fellow-citizens. The principle of this wish I am desirous to see acted upon in our system of finance; and to extend the familiar acquaintance of the public with subjects of that sort, shall be one of the points I shall keep most steadily, in view, convinced that this publicity is the circumstance most calculated to remedy that constitutional evil which has been thought most incident to the increase of our public burthens. I will no longer trespass upon the indulgence of the committee, but shall conclude with moving the first resolution.
§ Mr. Francis,after some compliments to the noble lord (Henry Petty), and acknowledgements of the industry and ability he had shewn, and the perspicuity with which he had stated a detail of topics so intricate and so extensive, for all which he gave him the highest credit, proceeded as follows:—Mr. Speaker; there are two material passages, in the excellent speech of my noble friend, on which I cannot retrain from making a few very short remarks; 576 on the first with great satisfaction;—on the second, I am sorry to say, with equal regret. I hear with pleasure, and I congratulate the house on the event, that my noble friend has found means to induce the governors and directors of the Bank of England to receive the duty on the dividends at the Bank. Whether that is to be done by deducting the amount in the first instance, or by what other process, I think he did not state. In whatever manner the measure may be executed, I am sure he has a full right to take personal credit for it, and to state that it will render the tax more productive, as I have no doubt it will do to a considerable amount. A regulation, of the same kind, was attempted a few years ago without success, and I was present when the chancellor of the exchequer informed the house that the directors of the bank, after long consideration, and some trial too, if I am not mistaken, had declared that the plan could not be executed; that it would derange their accounts and disorder their books, and that, in short, the thing, though desirable, was impracticable. The merit of overcoming these difficulties is due to the noble lord, and the value of the improvement enhanced by its being, to me at least, quite unexpected.—The other subject, to which I must advert, does not furnish matter for similar satisfaction. I mean the sudden and excessive increase of the Income Tax, by raising it at once to 10 per cent. I am afraid he will find great difficulties in his endeavours to reconcile the country to the amount of this enormous addition to their present burthens. I fear it will occasion much more general uneasiness, if not universal distress and discontent, than he is at present aware of. But it will be matter of surprize to me indeed, if the argument he resorts to, in defence of this rapid course of taxation, should satisfy the judgement of any man in the kingdom, even among those, who may be best disposed to submit to the amount. My noble friend justly observes, that it may seem paradoxical to say, that this mode of increase is preferable to one more gradual and less alarming to the public." Now I do not deny that an extraordinary proposition may be true, though it contradicts a received opinion. But then the evidence or the argument must be too powerful for the opinion. Instead of which, it seems to me that the proof in this case is full as great a paradox 577 as the proposition. The grievance or the burthen, as it is now felt, is a tax of five or six per cent., and the best way to cure the disorder or to silence the complaint, is to double the demand. He admits that gradual increase would be less alarming to the public, and for that reason he rejects it; as if the human mind were so constituted that, the more it is surprised, the less it is afflicted. This doctrine is new; but, I confess, that the novelty does not, to my apprehension, at all lessen the grievance. My noble friend affirms, that "a gradual rise would have led to the supposition that this was a fund to be drawn upon to an indefinite extent; but, being raised at once to its natural limit, there will be less suspicion of future augmentation." How so? Why is ten per cent. a more natural limit than eleven; or how does one violent act furnish an internal security against others of the same quality? All we know is that the thing done is a precedent, and that, in cases of this nature, the precedent most likely to be followed is that, which is most productive. Whether the increase of this tax proceeds gradatim or per saltum, whether it arrives at its natural limit by slow steps or hasty strides, I see no certainty that 10 per cent. will be the final extent of the demand; or that, in a few years, when the rapid principle cannot easily or safely be resorted to again, we shall not be invited to revert to the quiet and gentle operation of a gradual increase. As to any security, provided by either of the two principles, against future augmentation, I confess I see none. I throw out these thoughts, sir, very bastily, in hopes that they will be duly considered by the noble lord, and by other gentlemen more conversant in the subject than I am.
§ Lord Henry Pettythanked the hon. gent. for the partiality he had been pleased to express, and he felt it his duty, in answer to what had fallen from the hon. gent. respecting the conduct of the bank directors, to say, that the directors certainly acknowledged an application made to them by the right hon. gent. whom he had the honour to succeed, to induce them to receive the duties upon the dividends in their hands; which they declined, because in the situation where in they stood they had objections very natural for them to entertain; but, in answer to the application lately made to them, they condidly stated, that they saw so much evasion and un- 578 fairness practised, that they were induced to relinquish their scruples, and to agree to receive the duties payable on the dividends in their hands. With respect to the other point, namely, the increase of the Property Tax to 10 per cent. though he regretted the disapprobation of the hon. member, yet upon the best consideration. he had been able to give the principle, he must still think it an eligible one; and had only to repeat his former opinion, that he thought the public would be much better pleased with an increase of the tax, to that natural point beyond which it was not likely to be extended, than by a gradual increase year after year, of which they could reckon upon no definite limitation.
Mr. Roseacknowledged the very clear and satisfactory statement brought forward by the noble lord, and said it was not his intention to oppose his taxes; there was but one of them to which he had any special ground of objection: and had the noble lord contented himself with the eulogies he chose to bestow upon himself and his friends, he should not have risen to say a single word; but in answer to what had fallen from the noble lord towards the latter end of his speech, in the censure he had endeavoured to cast upon his majesty's late ministers, for a system of fraud, perjury, and peculation, which he alledged to have existed in the West Indies, unchecked and unpunished by those ministers, as if suffered to continue with their privity and acquiescence, he must beg to be indulged in a short reply. It had happened to himself, when a member of the late administration, to have been the first to detect those frauds and peculations, and he lost not one moment in the speediest endeavours to bring the perpetrators to condign punishment; as could be proved by the evidence on the table of that house. He had brought in a bill for the appointment of special commissioners, who were dispatched to the West Indies, to make strict enquiry into those frauds and abuses, in order to the punishment of the offenders, and to the attainment of restitution for the public. Those commissioners had transmitted home their reports, from time to time, to his majesty's government, who immediately committed them to the law advisers of the crown, in order to the speediest possible institution of such legal proceedings as they should deem most expedient for the objects in view. Why they were not brought to justice, it was not for 579 him to account, as certainly no step was omitted, on the part of the late administration; his hon. and learned friends near him could best answer on that point. The noble lord had also bestowed much panegyric on himself and his colleagues, upon the ground of the publicity they were determined to give with respect to the state of the finances and expenditure of the country, as if the noble lord meant to insinuate that the conduct of his majesty's late ministers had been exactly the reverse, or that the noble lord and his colleagues introduced under this profession, any thing new into the management of the public accounts. Now, was it not his late right hon. friend, now lost, and so justly and universally lamented by the country, that first instituted enquiry into the public accounts, and probed them to the bottom? Was it not under his auspices that those sources of publicity were established, for which the noble lord now took credit to himself and his colleagues? With respect, however, to the frauds which had existed in the West Indies, he was extremely glad to hear from the noble lord, that exertions of his majesty's late ministers had been followed up to bring the perpetrators to justice, and he seriously wished the endeavour might be successful. As he was up, there were some of the proposed taxes which called for some observation; the merits of those taxes he did not now mean to discuss. The tax on iron, for instance, would affect an important branch of raw materials in the manufactures of the country. Was the noble lord aware, that our exports in the manufactures of iron had, of late years, fallen off nearly one half, while that of steel and the finer species had dwindled almost to nothing? The right hon. gent. made similar objections to the Silk duty. Unless a drawback were allowed, a considerable damp must he cast on the export of two most important manufactures.
§ Lord Henry Pettyobserved, that if the only part of his speech to which the right hon. gent. objected was that in which he had spoken of the frauds arid peculations in the West Indies, and the publicity intended to be observed in the public accounts, conceiving him on those points to have cast a censure upon his majesty's late ministers, he. begged leave to disclaim any such design. He had never once named his majesty's late ministers in the course of his speech, nor should he be disposed to speak 580 of a right hon. gent., now no more, otherwise than with respect. When he spoke of the shameful system of fraud, peculation, and perjury, which had existed in the West Indies, he spoke of it only as shameful to the perpetrators. He did not state that his majesty's late ministers had taken no pains to detect or to punish those frauds, but he stated, they were still in continuance, and still uncorrected. With respect to the conduct of a late right hon. gent., nothing that he had said this night, or on any other occasion, could be fairly construed to detract from his merits; on the contrary, he gave him every credit for the measures instituted by him, to detect and prevent fraud, and for the establishment of the sinking, fund. The noble lord added, that the only eulogium he had uttered, was the professing his determination to adhere to a strict discharge of his duty, and his conviction, that the public held confidence in the intentions of his majesty's present ministers, which they were determined to justify by their conduct.
Mr. Rosereferred the noble lord to the act of parliament, to see what had been done to check the abuses complained of.
§ Lord Henry Pettyreplied, that the object of the act had not been attained.
Mr. Perceralobserved, that although the noble lord had made no direct charge against his majesty's late ministers, there was in the tenour of his speech a pretty broad insinuation against their conduct; that the public were more ready to bear an increase of burthens on the present occasion than before; and that the fraudulent transactions in the West Indies had continued by something like negligence or connivance: and the noble lord said this in such a way, as he must feel called for some answer. With respect to the West-India subject, he was ready to vouch for the statement made by his right hon. friend. He was extremely glad to hear from the noble lord, that proceedings had been instituted to bring those delinquents to justice; but he apprehended, from the nature of the reports he had seen, it would be extremely difficult so to do. With respect to the other parts of the noble lord's statement, he agreed with the hon. member who spoke second in the debate, that it was clear and satisfactory to the house; but there were some parts of it, on which he did not mean to urge any discussion now, but should barely mention, by way of putting in his claim to investigate them on a future day. 581 He alluded principally to the manner of proceeding adopted by the noble lord, in moving the whole Ways and Means, before the estimates were before the house, or the supplies for those estimates yet voted; particularly the items of the Army estimates. The noble lord might have made himself, by this time, sufficiently acquainted with the subject, by communicating with a right hon. friend near him (Mr. Windham), to have satisfied the house. The estimates, when they should come forward, he hoped would be satisfactory; but the circumstance was such a one as not to pass without parliamentary notice. On the arrangement proposed in the income-tax, he feared many difficulties would arise, extremely embarrassing and unsatisfactory; but he was glad to find, that, in one respect, it was brought now again to that state in which it was first established when he had the honour of being a member of his majesty's administration. Upon the appraisement tax, he felt that great and unexpected difficulties would arise, judging from the experience he had had of the frauds and evasions practised under the auction tax, which were of the grossest nature, and to an enormous amount. Nothing was more common than for the proprietor of an estate to put it up to auction, in order to find out the highest bidder, which done, he bought in the estate himself, pro forma, and afterwards sold it by private contract to the bidder before mentioned, and thus eluded the whole of the duty.
§ Lord H Pettyrepeated the statements he before made of estimates of the supply and Ways and Means, to shew that the latter did not exceed the former in the proportion mentioned by the learned gent. The tax upon appraisements, he said, would be raised by a stamp duty; and, he admit-that the state of the auction duty was worthy of great consideration. The circumstance of first setting up things to sale, then buying them in, and afterwards disposing of them by private contract, he was sensible of being a great source of frauds upon the revenue.
§ Mr. Percevalsuggested, as one remedy for this, to deprive the principal of all right to become himself a bidder. He then once more reverted to the impropriety of voting Ways and Means beyond the supply, which, he said, was repugnant to the constitutional principle of not laying unnecessary burthens upon the people. He also suggested, that, as the exchequer bills 582 were, at present, very little productive to the revenue, the tax upon them should be deducted, at the bank, in the same manner as the tax on stocks; which, he thought, was the only way of making every individual pay his just proportion. Lord H. Petty, in reply to the constitutional objection of the learned gent., said he understood the true restraint to be, that the Ways and Means should not be applied by government before the supplies were voted.
Mr. Rosecontended that they should not even be proposed to the house, till the supplies were known.
Mr. Secretary Foxadmitted that the Ways and Means ought not to exceed the supply, but contended that the object was to prevent government from raising money by Ways and Means till the house had an opportunity of recognizing the necessity of the supply. The war taxes, as had been stated by the noble lord, were regularly voted for the service of the year. The surplus, if any, might be properly applied to different services; for instance, to the sinking fund. But his noble friend would take care that the Ways and Means should not exceed the supplies to be voted. He admitted, however, that there was considerable inconvenience in bringing forward the Ways and, Means before the estimates for the army were regularly before the house, and it was one which ought as much as possible to be avoided. But the same sort of inconvenience was felt last year in the vote with regard to the subsidies, the amount of which depended upon treaties with foreign powers, which at that time were not in great forwardness, But though he admitted the inconvenience, he denied that there was any thing in this proceeding which counteracted any fixed principle. The inconvenience of delaying the bringing forward of the budget till the army estimates could be regularly produced, would, however, have been greater than the one under which they at present laboured, and government had only the choice between the two. Now, with regard to the words of his noble friend respecting the frauds and abuses in the West Indies, he must say that he was taken up in a very hasty manner. He had heard him perfectly, but had no idea that he had brought any charge against the late administration. He had, on the contrary, praised highly the scheme of the sinking fund, in which he cordially joined him. He had heard no 583 charge against the late administration; but he considered it somewhat hard and unfair that his noble friend should be prevented from saving that it was the intention of government to adopt means for putting an end to frauds and perjuries, merely. lest he should be understood to bring a charge against the late ministry. The remark was certainly not improper in itself; but how long was it since those abuses had been detected? ten years was it? (no! no! from the other side). How long then? Only five years; very well. On the first view of the thing it might naturally enough be thought that there was no necessity for such along delay in bringing the offenders to justice, or doing something in the affair. But, however, he did not mean to say that the late government had not made exertions to put an end to the frauds and abuses to which he had adverted. Now as to the tax on Appraisements, if the frauds in the tax on auctions could by this means be prevented, it would be a great object gained. It would be proper that this should be considered, and any assistance that might be given by the hon. and learned gent. on the other side would be thankfully accepted. There were also difficulties as to the claims to the exemptions, and this point might, no doubt, require consideration. With respect to the tax on Property, he concurred with his noble friend, that it was better to raise it at once to the amount at which it was likely to hold during the war, than to advance it gradually. It might be said, and it had been said by his hon. friend near him (Mr. Francis), that there was no security against its being still gradually raised. But then, he certainly thought that the present mode was preferable to advancing it 1 per cent. in one year, and 1 1/2 per cent. in another year, and so on, which would at last lead to a constant gradual advance, which might in the end annihilate all property. This he had stated on a former occasion to be his great objection to such a gradual advance. Gentlemen now, however, might be at rest upon this head. It had been said, that his noble friend had praised himself; those who knew him, would say, that this was not a fault of his. But what bad be said? He stated that every means would be adopted to check abuses, not in contradistinction to any thing that had been done by another ministry, but merely as a fact, and the grounds on which he stated this resolution to rest were, the Reports of the commissioners of naval enquiry, and 584 the labours of the Military Commission, which had certainly been appointed by the late administration. These were the reasons which he had given for his expectation of public confidence and support. He had given a noble pledge, and he had no doubt he would adhere to it, which rested upon the truest principle that could possibly be stated, and that was, that no exertion would be spared in attending to, and investigating abuses and their causes, with a view to find out the means of correcting them, and inspiring the public with a well founded confidence that their money would be properly expended; which was the only thing that could induce them to bear with cheerfulness the burthens which it was necessary to impose upon them.
§ Sir Vicary Gibbsadverted to the proceedings relative to the West-India abuses, and confirmed the statement of his hon. and learned friend (Mr. Perceval), that the want of legal evidence was the only cause why the offenders had not been brought to trial.
§ Sir William Youngsaid that he had never objected to a colonial tax, nor would he do it now. He only rose to set the noble lord right as to a fact. He had said that the prices of sugar at present bore him out in the conclusion that this article was a proper subject of taxation. He could say, from his personal knowledge, that the owners did not, since the year 1798, get more than two thirds of the price which they had formerly received. As they had not the home market, he hoped that a proper drawback would be allowed, that they might at least have the advantage of the foreign market.
§ Mr. Huskissoncontended that every attention had been paid to the abuses and frauds in the West Indies, from the time when they had been detected. He was sorry that the delinquents had not been brought to condign punishment; but this was owing to the peculiar circumstances of the case, and not to any want of attention on the part of the late government? Many abuses, however, had been pointed out, and, from the efforts that had been made, there were at first a great many which certainly did not now exist. He congratulated the country upon the pledge which the present government had given; a pledge, which, in his opinion, did them great honour, that they would adhere to the system of finance which had been adopted by his honoured friend who was now no more. 585 This system was to raise the Ways and Means as much as possible, in such a way as to equal the supplies, and keep down as much as possible the loans, which were necessary to be contracted. He was happy in this pledge, because, from some things which they had heard out of doors, and from other circumstance, the friends of that system had felt a considerable degree of uneasiness. He then adverted to the deficiencies of the last year, and contended that they arose on account of services for which no grants had been made by parliament. This he did in order to shew that his deceased friend had not prepared his accounts with that negligence and want of foresight which might, perhaps, have been attributed to him, by those who might have had no opportunity of knowing any thing of the matter, except from the statement of the noble lord. He concluded by expressing his approbation of the manner in which the budget had upon the whole been proposed.
Mr. Vansittartadmitted that it would, no doubt, be extremely improper to bring forward the Ways and Means, unless those who brought it forward had some idea of what the expence of the military department was likely to be. He by means agreed with the hon. gent. who had just sat down, that the surplus of the consolidated fund was under-rated, and denied the criteria upon which the hon. gent's estimate was founded; but yet he would, of course, be happy if the result should appear to justify the hon. gent.'s calculations. The right hon. gent. took occasion, in alluding to the war taxes, to state that the country was indebted to his noble friend (lord Sidmouth) for the origination of that system, from which such salutary efforts were found to spring, and the principle of which now met the universal concurrence of parliament, and the country.
Mr. S. Bournealledged, that so far from overlooking the frauds committed in the West Indies, the late board of treasury issued several orders for the prosecution of all persons concerned in such frauds, and absolutely referred the case to the comptrollers of the navy, with directions to suggest proper measures to guard against their recurrence. He had also to state, that immediately after the report of the commission on the subject of these frauds, the report was referred, with a similar view of prevention for the future, to the commissioners for auditing public accounts. 586 So that nothing was left undone by the late board of treasury, to punish the agents, and to prevent the recurrence of the evil complained of.
Lord Templethought it his duty to state, that he knew of his own knowledge, that steps were taken by the late ministry to prevent the recurrence of the frauds committed in the West Indies. These frauds consisted of extravagant premiums on exchange, and false vouchers; and such abuses did, he knew, still continue to exist.
§ Mr. Huskissoncould not well conceive how the noble lord should undertake to speak so confidently as to the proceedings of the board of treasury. But if those who had the opportunity would look more attentively into the records of that board, it would be seen that no means were neglected, that promised to put a stop to the frauds alluded to. The fact was, that in consequence of an order from the late board of treasury, a person was now under prosecution in the court of exchequer, for permitting the continuance of the abuse which gave room for these frauds, although the character of this individual for integrity was by no means implicated. But, independently of the orders for prosecution, arrangements were made in the West Indies with respect to the drawing of bills upon England, which were particularly calculated to guard against every fraud upon the subject of exchange.
Mr. Rosesaid, that had the noble lord taken the trouble to examine the records contained in his office, he would have found that steps had been taken for correcting the evil in question.
§ Mr. Percevalsaid, that whatever steps might have been formerly taken for the removal of the evil, yet new culprits might arise, whose cases might require the application of additional remedies.
§ Mr. Foxcomplained, that after the abuses had been known to exist for five years, no general plan had been devised for preventing their recurrence, and that matters had remained in precisely the same state, as when they were first discovered.
§ Mr. Longbegged to know, how the sum of 90,000l. payable as interest on the loan from the bank, was to be provided for?
§ Lord H. Pettyanswered, by exchequer bills.—The several resolutions were then agreed to, and the report was ordered to be received to-morrow.