ORDNANCE ESTIMATES.

HC Deb 17 March 1806 vol 6 cc456-70

Mr. Alexander

brought up the report of the committee of supply, containing the resolutions respecting the Ordnance Estimates. On the motion that these be read a second time,

General Tarleton

took this opportunity of making some observations, which he felt it his duty to submit to the house. He was very anxious to know the fate of what had been so much ridiculed under the title of the Parish bill, a bill which was nevertheless become highly productive, having furnished in the last week 353 men. It was likewise important to ascertain the determination of government with regard to that very meritorious, very useful, and very respectable body, the Volunteers, who had been treated by a right hon. gent. (Mr. Windham) when he was on the opposition bench, with such derision. He had been a military man thirty years, a great part of which had been spent in active duty; perhaps more would have been so, had it not been for his violent attachment to some gentlemen whom he then saw on the treasury bench. He could assure the right hon. gent. that their ideas of war materially differed. He was not for setting to with all the formality of boxers, but of using every stratagem and every means within reach. It was now near the end of March, and our military preparations were standing still. Another right hon. gent. (Mr. Sheridan) had borrowed a naval cloak front a right hon. friend of his (Mr. Canning), but he had not found it warm enough to bring him down to the house, to move for the repeal of which he had given notice at an early period of the session. He remembered that right hon. gent.'s having compared a late administration (the one which preceded the last) to a team composed of black horses and bay, drawing different ways, by whom he predicted that the state coach would he highly endangered. He should like to know what he could say of the present government, in which there were horses of all colours and all descriptions, black, white, dun, and dapple, some pulling in one direction, some plunging in another, some kicking, others prancing; no accord, no union, nothing that could promise advantage to the country. With regard to the Ordnance Estimates before the house, they were those which had been formed by the late administration, unaltered and unimproved. He meant by this no imputation on the pre sent Board of Ordnance, on the head of which particularly he passed a high encomium. In his opinion, the victory of Trafalgar had made a material difference in the situation of Great Britain. From that epoch we might consider the triumph of our navy as complete. We could not expect that the French would again dare to contend with us at sea, and we must therefore look to carry on the war in some other way. Unless some formidable continental confederacy could be formed to divert the attention of the enemy, we must expect about June, that the French troops would flock down to the coast, and in the flotilla with which their every creek and harbour swarmed, make some desperate experiment upon this country. He had no doubt that the best dispositions would be made to receive them warmly, but he could not help suggesting the propriety of not allowing Woolwich to be the sole depository of our means of defence. It behoved government to take steps to create some great central depot. It might be said that one was forming at Wedenbeck, but this was not sufficiently central. He would advise one at Leicester, or Nottingham, in which every thing should be provided and ready for an army of 200,000 men. Under the present circumstances, should any contingency allow the French to waft a large body of troops over to our shores, it was very possible, that the British army might be compelled to act at an unfavourable juncture, merely for the defence of Woolwich, which from its nearness to the coast opposite to France, and from the rapidity with which the French troops were accustomed to march, would be in considerable danger. Every one knew the importance of a great arsenal. It was the capture of the Austrian arsenal in Vienna, that led to the treaty of Presburgh. No man would fight worse, because he knew every means were taken to ensure success to his exertions. Should a central depot, such as he had recommended, be established; should the French land and he enabled to advance, the country might rely on the bravery of the people of the North, of the inhabitants of Yorkshire, of Cheshire, of Lancashire, who would thus have it in their power to combat, and there could be no doubt, ultimately, to defeat the foe. After a brief recapitulation, he concluded by declaring, in the words of Mr. Burke, "that he would rather be despised for too anxious apprehension, than ruined by too confident security."

Mr. Calcraft

said, that instead of the question before the house, and the only regular one in discussion, the speech of the hon. general embraced such a variety of topics as rendered it extremely difficult to discover what was his principal object. He should not, however, follow him over a field so desultory and irrelevant, but confine himself to the subject of the Ordnance Estimates; with the merit or demerit of which, those who had now the direction of that branch of the public service certainly had little or nothing to do; nor could they have the most distant wish of assuming to themselves any share of the praise or dispraise to which it might be entitled, or to conceal from the house what every clerk in the offices belonging to that department must know; namely, that those estimates were formed by their predecessors in office. They found them ready formed, and under existing circumstances, deemed it eligible to adopt them; and so far from depreciating their merits, he was ready to defend their adoption, against any censure which might be thrown on them. The noble lord now at the head of that department had found, that great expenditures laid already been devoted to the establishment of old works and systems of defence begun, which he deemed it much more eligible to complete and carry into effect, than to attempt the erection or establishment of new. With regard to those designs that had been only planned, but of which the execution had not been begun by the former administration, he admitted that some of them had also been included in the estimates now on the table; but the board did not therefore pledge themselves to abide by those plans. They might adopt them with exceptions, or reject some of them entirely, as should appear most proper on farther deliberation, or from the occurrence of new circumstances. In this case the money that had been destined for those services might be returned or voted to some other purpose. The only alteration in the present estimate, from that which was formed by the late board of ordnance, was an article against which the sum of 12,000l. was written; and comparing the same estimate for several preceding years, it had been found, on inspection, that the laboratory at Woolwich had annually exceeded 25,000l. It had been thought therefore, that, contrary to the former practice, the fairest way was to bring forward that specific sum in the esti- mates at once as necessary for that purpose. With regard to the removal of the depot from Woolwich, which the hon. member seemed to advise, he confessed that it was not for him to decide on such a question. It was a military question of no inconsiderable magnitude, and would require deliberation. But this was not the only military depot in the country: there was also another arsenal, situated nearly in the center of the kingdom, arid for which a sum had been charged in the estimates; he meant the arsenal at Wedenbeck; which, as would appear from the estimates, had not been overlooked by the board. The hon. gent. concluded by repeating the reasons which had induced the present board to adopt the estimates of the former, which was a circumstance, he thought, that might have secured them from opposition.

General Tarleton

said he did not mean to blame the present board, for adopting the estimates left them by the former. It had been his intention only to inculcate the necessity of establishing inland depots, for the security and accommodation of the country in case of invasion. The arsenal at Wedenbeck, he represented as very defective state, not a single cannon having been provided for the security of these places.

Lord Castlereagh

said, he rose from no intention to oppose the estimates now before the house, as they were the same that had been framed by his hon. friends formerly in office. He was anxious to know, however, if the present administration had it in contemplation to follow up that system of coast defence upon the Eastern coast, which had been so strongly recommended by his late right hon. friend (Mr. Pitt), and which it was his intention to have completed. He felt it necessary to mention this, as although it did not form an article in the estimates of ordnance framed by the late administration, and now - brought forward by the hon. gent. yet it was fully in their contemplation as an essential part of the defensive system, and would certainly have been proposed, had his right hon. friend, on his return from Bath, been able to attend in his place in that house; for, in his opinion, there was no object more essential; because in presenting a strong defence on that point, should the enemy approach our coast, seeing the impracticability of making any impression in that quarter, their efforts would be thrown upon the flanks, in consequence of which they would be forced to traverse a considerable distance by sea, in endeavouring to direct their efforts to the northward or southward. In this case there would be great probability of their falling in with the heavy ships of our navy, and being totally defeated. He felt this point so important, that he wished seriously to impress it upon the minds of his majesty's ministers, and to express his hope that no attention to a false or delusive economy would induce them to be sparing in the expenditure necessary for our absolute safety. Indeed, from what he knew of the mind of the noble lord at the head of that department, he was convinced the importance of this consideration would be too deeply felt to stand one moment in competition with an ill-timed parsimony. He thought it also necessary to say, with respect to Ireland, that a plan of general defence was indispensible for the security of that country, and was also in the contemplation of his majesty's late ministers. It was certainly of the first importance to the safety of that that it should no longer remain in a situation in which an enemy, landing with an effective force, might march from one end to the other, unimpeded by a fortified post of sufficient strength to retard their progress. He therefore wished ministers might make up their minds to the necessity of a liberal expence to render that system fully adequate to the pressure of the occasion. He was ready to agree with the hon. general who opened the debate, as to the propriety of dividing the depots of ordnance and arms, and, in pursuance of this plan, a central depot had been formed, in which particular attention had been paid to an adequate supply of small arms and of ammunition fixed and unfixed. He had also the pleasure of informing the house that a train of artillery had also been added, fully manned and horsed; but that the artillery for our navy, with its appropriate ammunition, was so ponderous as not to be very easy of removal, and therefore the principal depot still remained at Woolwich, with minor arsenals at Plymouth and Portsmouth.— He was sensible that this was merely a question on the Ordnance, but he would take the liberty, notwithstanding, of putting a question to the right hon. gent. opposite (Mr. Windham), though rather foreign perhaps to the subject. That right hon. gent. in answer to an hon. friend of his, on a former evening, had expressed himself rather ambiguously respecting the Additional Force act. He had indeed admitted that it would form no part of the plan he was about to submit to the house; but he had not stated explicitly if it was in contemplation to repeal this act. So much convinced was he of the good effects of this act, and so anxious for its continuance, that, should it not he repealed, he thought the suspension, however unpleasant, in the mean time, would be amply compensated by its continuance and vigorous execution. At the same time it became an object to know whether the bill was to be repealed or not, that those counties which had not conformed to its provisions might know in. what situation they stood. For, the moment this bill should be discharged, without some legislative provision for the purpose, those parishes that had not raised their quotas would be indemnified from the penalties incurred by the said act. This certainly would be highly unfair, and be doing an injustice to those counties that had fulfilled their duty. But if it was intended, in order to avoid this injustice, to make those parishes pay the fines they had incurred, it was but fair also to put them on their guard, and to let them know the penalty to which they were liable. This would also have the farther good effect of doing the bill that justice in the execution to which it was. entitled. The right hon. gent. therefore ought, not only to that house, but also to the public, to make a positive declaration of his intentions. The noble lord then proceeded to shew the strength and vigour which this bill had exhibited, notwithstanding the disadvantages under which it had laboured from the professed hostility of the present administration. Then adverting to the Voluntter system, he maintained it to be impossible that any thing like a volunteer, whatever might be the abilities of the right hon. gent., could look without dread and discouragement to any counsels that he was supposed to influence. The noble lord concluded by calling on the right hon. gent. to declare more explicitly his intentions respecting the bill; and should the bill be repealed, it he intended to levy the fines on the deficient parishes according to the spirit of the bill? On this and other questions connected with the military defence of the country, it was indispensible that an immediate determination should take place and that the men of talents, of which the new administration was said to be formed, should hasten to exert those talents in a way calculated to be of service to the public. The patient might otherwise expire before the state-physicians had made up their minds, as to the prescriptions that ought to be adopted.

Mr. Secretary Windham

said, that a right hon. gent. opposite him (Mr. Canning) had, on a former occasion, expressed an opinion that the new ministers ought to have been ready with their plan, in the space of three days after coming into office; but he surely ought to have considered, and the noble lord in a particular should have repressed his impatience, by reflecting that the dilemma to which they were reduced, and which wanted so much explanation, arose from difficulties which the noble lord himself and his friends had created. Their military system had been so bad, that it naturally produced those difficulties. The strong expectation expressed on the other side of the house, of something new, was a proof, even in their opinion, that something more effectual was absolutely required to be done. The noble lord had very properly compared the present military system to a sick patient. But who had reduced the wretched patient to that languishing state? How came the patient to be in his present situation? Was it not the noble lord, and his friends who had brought him to death's door? And yet, those who had brought the country to that state, were now loud their reproaches against their successors, for hot restoring the patient instantly to health. Then noble lord wished to know, what was to be done? On this head it was very difficult to satisfy his enquiry. The whole of what had been urged on the other side came to this; the gentlemen felt that they had brought the country into difficulties, and expressed their surprise that ministers should be so long in extricating it from them. As to the admonition of the noble lord, with respect to the other topics upon which he had touched, he had only to say, that the attention of his majesty's ministers would be seriously directed towards them. To the other points on which the noble lord asked information, he had no answer to make; not that he was unprepared to give the answer, but because he did not conceive that the noble lord had any right to put the questions. He had nothing to add, therefore, to what he had said before on the subject; namely, that the question as under the consideration of govern- ment, and would, in due time, be submitted to parliament.

Mr. Canning

thought the right hon. gent. might have given some answer to the question of his noble friend, relative to the course intended to be pursued with regard to the penalties. As the right hon. gent. had alluded to what had fallen from him in a former debate, he should briefly advert to his speech on that occasion. He had never said, that the right hon. gent. had made any declaration, that in three days, he would produce a plan to meet the necessity of the times. The declaration he alluded to was made before there was any prospect of an immediate change, on the first day of the session, when the right hon. gent. had observed, on a wish being expressed for some delay of the public business under the circumstances of the moment, that five days delay was the longest the military system would admit of. This declaration had been made under circumstances of a peculiar nature; and with what feelings, he left the house to determine. The right hon. gent. had wholly mistated the argument of his noble friend. He assumed, that it was admitted on their side of the house, that some remedy was necessary. But in their observations they did not compare the right hon. gent.'s measure with their own, but with his promises; not with the system hitherto acted upon, but with that which he had held forth: They compared what he was to do, with what he had promised he could and would do. A long delay had taken place since the accession of the right hon. gent. to power, and yet he did not think himself called upon to make any previous declaration to the house and the country, of the measures he proposed to adopt. But no person, who had attended to the discussions in that house for the last four years, would think the application for information on such topics very new. It was particularly to be expected from an administration, combining, as had been asserted, and as they themselves represented, and what he was not disposed to deny, all the talents, all the abilities, arid all the experience and wisdom of the country, that they should be ready to bring forward their measures without much delay. The right hon. gent. had proposed many systems, and advanced many theories for the public service before he was in office, and yet he had been so long in administration without either having made up in his mind, or been able to persuade his colleagues to agree to his plan. If they were to agitate these questions with a view to draw from the right hon. gent. a premature disclosure of his measures, they would ill discharge their duty to the public. But it was to be recollected, that the late ministers wished for a varied force; the right hon. gent. on the contrary, would have it all uniform, that is, of the description applicable to foreign service. Was it not therefore alarming, that so much time should have been suffered to elapse without his having stated his intentions on this head? They wished to keep up the Volunteer force; he, on the contrary, though he did not depreciate or undervalue the Volunteers individually, had declared the whole system to be radically wrong. Was it not therefore alarming, and was it not natural, for those Volunteers, who, in a military view, had fallen under his suspicion, should be anxious to know, as early as possible, what measures the right hon. gent. meant to adopt with respect to them? Another source of anxiety arose from the circumstances relating to the Additional Force bill. A right hon. gent. (Mr. Sheridan) high in the confidence of the present ministers, had on the first day of the session given notice of a motion for its repeal. Was -it not matter of great anxiety to know the course that would be pursued with respect to this measure? Another source of anxiety was the principle of responsibility being confined to the individual member of the administration, who was particularly concerned in the execution of measures. From this doctrine he differed. The aggregate, and not the individual, was the object of his confidence; and he did hope, that the present administration, though he could not say that he approved of the appointment of particular individuals to the departments they occupied, would be entitled to his confidence, because he saw that there was one great ruling spirit, one presiding soul, to guide, controul, and direct its measures. As a war minister, he could not approve of the right hon. gent., and he was sure that the opinion of nine-tenths of the nation was with him. If he judged of him according to a standard which had been recommended in another instance, by estimating the future by the past, he saw no reason to be satisfied with him in his -present-situation. The right hon. gent. wished to nourish that fine tree, the regular army, and to do so by clearing away all the rub- bish, for that had been one of his plans. Another reason why he could not give his confidence to him was, a declaration made by himself, and which, without such declaration, he could impute to no man, that he had sat nine years in a Cabinet, though he disapproved of all its measures during that period, excepting the war.

Mr. Windham

utterly denied the declarations that had been imputed to him. He had inveighed against the measure of the parish bill, without pledging himself to bring forward any specific measure in its place. That he had agreed during the nine years of his former administration with his colleagues in office in nothing but the war, he utterly denied having said. The war had been the basis on which he had gone into power, and was what he had regarded as the bond of union with that administration. Whether that conduct was right or not, it was not now a proper time to discuss.

Mr. Whitbread

said, he gave credit to the right hon. gent. who had just sat down, for that open and manly enmity which he had so early and pointedly marked to the present administration: he admitted also the kindness of the noble lord who professed, in a manner which one would be inclined to consider as rather a little insidious, that it was not his wish to press the right hon. secretary to premature explanations upon the plans in contemplation. Indeed he had said, that it would be highly imprudent for the right hon. gent. to disclose any part of those plans, and yet the whole of his speech was composed of questions purposely directed to extort that disclosure. The anxiety of the noble lord seemed particularly manifested by his curiosity to know what was to be done with the Additional Force bill, and by his extreme solicitude, lest the same penalties and embarrassing exactions, to which one part of the country had been subjected, should not be extended to all the rest? He begged it, however, to be recollected, that the omission of raising men in those parishes, was not owing to neglect, but to impossibility; and that by much the greater number of them were unable to pay the fines they had thereby incurred. Rigorously to exact those fines would be a curious expedient, to prevent vexation in one part of the country, and of jealousy in another. The right hon. gent. who spoke last, was uneasy lest the Volunteers should take alarm at present suspence, as to what measures were to be adopted respecting them. He had the honour to be a Volunteer, and he, for his part, felt no such alarm, and he was confident also that no such alarm could be felt by the Volunteers in general, as friends to their country, in consequence of any uncertainty under which they might remain until ministers brought forward their system. With respect to the wonderful efficacy so recently discovered in the operation of the Additional Force bill, he begged to know on what authority the right hon. gent. made his assertion? or how that bill, when administered by him and his friends, should be so unproductive, and yet so effective now that they had ceased to have the management of it? The hon. member said, he could not speak from official documents, for he had recourse to none; but he could speak from the authority of those who had recourse to such information, and tell the right hon. gent. that this recent efficacy in the bill was not the effect of its natural operation, but the work of crimps and recruiting officers, in turning over to the parish levies, men under size for the line and militia. In respect to the delay of which he had complained, six weeks only had elapsed since his right hon. friend had come into office; a period surely not unreasonable to require for investigating the whole military system of the country, and endeavouring to form a system free from those defects and blunders, with which it was fraught under his predecessors! As to the lecture of the noble lord to his right hon. friend, he should only say, that if there was any mark to direct to the proper course to be pursued, it was to do the very reverse of what the noble lord had adopted whilst he was a member of the administration.

Mr. Secretary Fox

said, that at another time, he might be inclined to go more at large into the general topics that had been introduced into this discussion, but in the present instance he meant only to observe shortly upon some points that had been touched upon by the right hon. gent. opposite, (Mr. Canning). That right hon. gent. had stated, that the present administration comprised all the talents in the country; and he had even stated it in such a manner as might lead to a supposition that they had so represented themselves. He should be happy that the right hon. gent. would state on what occasion he had heard them so represent themselves. It was impossible that they could have said so, when they saw the right hon. gent. on the other side of the house. It would be ridiculous in any person to insinuate that ministry comprised all the talent of the country, when the right hon. gent. was out of office. Not only the right hon. gent. but his colleagues on the same bench with him, had made such a representation impossible, particularly by the display of talent which they had already made in opposition. This declaration he (Mr. Fox) made for himself and his colleagues. It was possible some of the friends of the present administration, thinking too highly of their merits, might from prejudice or partiality have so described them, but he thought it was hardly for the friends of a right hon. gent. lately deceased, (Mr. Pitt) to be the first to object to that species of compliment. He had never, so far as that right hon. gent. was concerned, observed the right hon. gent. opposite an enemy to panegyric; let him look to what he himself had said of his late right hon. friend, and perhaps he would not think the partiality of friends so unwarrantable. With respect to his right hon. friend near him (Mr. Windham), the right hon. gent. had said, that he had no opinion of him, nor any confidence in him as a war minister, and that 99 out of every 100 were of the same mind with him on this subject. This opinion the right hon. gent. immediately took as granted, and then went on—not to propose to turn him out—but to say, "Before you have fully matured your plan, explain to me the nature of it." Was it, he would ask, a fair inference of want of confidence, to require of his right hon. friend to tell them the nature of his plan out of time? His right hon. friend admitted he was not completely ready. In that case he presumed to think it extremely hard that gentlemen opposite should say, Answer us on a point on which you confess you are not ready. It was pretty well known that it was the wish of the right hon. gent. lately deceased, to get the friends with whom he (Mr. Fox) acted, so make a part of his (Mr. Pitt's) administration, and that such endeavours had been used with his right hon. friend (Mr. Windham), after he had made the speeches to which the right hon. gent. opposite alluded. It might, indeed, be said, that it was not in the contemplation of Mr. Pitt, to have given his right hon. friend the war department, but to have placed him in some other situation. If he (Mr. Fox), however, understood the right hon. gent. opposite, no change of place could have satisfied the right hon. gent., or removed his objections to his right hon. friend's holding any situation. He would have said, "It is not to the head of the particular department that I give my confidence, but to the whole of the Ministry." The right hon. gent. talked of delay. It was not till the 7th of Feb. that his right hon. friend's writ was moved, The right hon. gent. (Mr. Pitt), to whom he was convinced the right hon. gent. opposite would not willingly impute delay, or any other bad quality, did not for four weeks after his return to power bring in his Additional Force act. There the time which intervened was nearly as long as in the present instance. There too, a single act only was to be introduced. Here there was a new system to be founded. There, however, no objection of delay was started, neither were any premature enquiries made into the nature of the plan which he intended to adopt. If there had been any such, how awkwardly must that right hon, gent, have found himself situated ifs declaring it to be built on a system such as he himself had been decrying within the last three weeks! The right hon. secretary declared that lie could not figure any reason for putting any question like the present, but a wish to embarrass. What good motive could the persisting in it proceed from, when his right hon. friend had stated that he was not quite ready to bring forward his measure? If he was guilty of delay, why not bring forward against him a charge to that effect, and let his conduct be the subject of parliamentary enquiry? But what advantage could proceed from a premature declaration, similar to that now required? From what good motive could the wish to procure such a declaration, proceed? He should only put it to the candour of the right hon. gent. himself. If, before the plan of the military arrangements now in agitation had been ready to be laid before the house, his right hon. friend had at once moved for the repeal of the Additional Force bill, while nothing was ready to substitute in its stead, what would the right hon. gent. have said? Would he not have said; "Here, this is your haste to shew your triumph over the gentleman who is now no more? Could you not have waited with patience, and allowed the act to take its course till you were ready with a substitute?" He would appeal to the right hon gent. if that would not have been his conduct; and, if his right hon. friend now said that this bill formed no part of his plan, did it not follow that this was not the time to investigate or discuss its merits?

Mr. Canning,

in reply to the appeal made to his candour, acknowledged, that it the Additional Force act had been repealed before the new system was proposed, he should not only have arraigned it as an impatience to obtain a triumph, but also have contrasted it with the conduct of his right hon. departed friend, who did not repeal the act of his predecessors, until he had a substitute ready to replace it. For some years, the right hon. gent. (Mr. Windham) had been saying, that a proper system of defence might be formed by any other than drivellers, by getting rid of the existing incumbrances; but now it appeared, that he did not find the task so easy as he was in the habit of representing it to be.

Mr. Perceval

thought that the different topics which had been discussed this night, would come more properly before the house on a future occasion. He thought, however, that it was hardly correct in the right hon. gent. (Mr. Fox) to say, that it was impossible the question could have been put from a good motive, more particularly as his noble friend did not press his question concerning the plan which the right hon. secretary (Mr. Windham) had in contemplation, but limited it as to the penalties. This he thought was a reasonable and proper question, as, while it was suffered to remain in suspence whether they were to be levied or not, it acted with a double disadvantage. With regard to the expectation that had been said to exist on this side of the house, he denied it to be peculiar to this side, and thought it not unreasonable, considering the pledges that had been held out. The right hon. gent. had been in the habit of considering what had been done on this subject as mere drivelling, and representing it as necessary only to clear away the rubbish. It was not wonderful then that some disappointment should be felt when he was so backward with his plans. For his own part however, he had met with no disappointment. He never thought the right hon. gent's plans would be realized. He never believed that better plans could be got than those now existing.

Mr. Fox

explained, that he ascribed no bad motives to any one, and had only said that he could see no good one for those enquiries,

Dr. Laurence

agreed with the hon. gent. who had just sat down, that this was not the time to enter into a discussion on the subject. He however thought the conduct of the gentlemen on the other side was so extraordinary, that he could not refrain from adverting to a few particulars. They had required his right hon. friend to make a statement of certain parts of his plan, when he had already declared, that the plan he intended to propose, was not entirely arranged. It seemed as if their object was to induce him to make declarations, which hereafter might be stated as a curb on his actions. But what man would be so absurd as to make declarations, when they were so likely to be mistated? when, in the debate of that very night, such misrepresentations had been made of former declarations? In fact, they could not be depended on; and he thought his right hon. friend had acted wisely in avoiding them entirely.—The Resolutions were then read and agreed to.