TRAINING BILL.

HC Deb 24 June 1806 vol 7 cc813-29

Mr. Windham

moved the order of the day for the further consideration of the report of the committee on the Training bill.

Lord Castlereagh

was extremely anxious, before this question was further gone into, to come to an understanding on a point which was most material. It was very currently reported, that the only object of the right hon. secretary in the present bill, was to incorporate his own ideas with the act already in existence; but when it should have passed, to have it, like that act, un-executed, unless some particular emergency should arise. If that were true, he should have little objection to allow the bill to proceed. It was certainly most material to the discussion, to be informed whether the bill, if passed as it now stood, was to be executed or not.

Mr. Windham

said, this was the first time he had heard of any doubt that the measure was to be carried into execution. It was then ordered that the report be now taken into further consideration. It was then moved that the bill be recommitted.

Colonel Bagwell

rose for the purpose of opposing the bill. He was willing to do justice to the purity of the intentions of the right hon. gent.; but he would contend, that he had been most unfortunate in the application of the means which the country had placed in his hands and those of his colleagues. Every measure he had proposed, so far from increasing our force, had an opposite tendency. One of the first of his measures was to get rid of an act which produced annually 18,000 men in the army; and for what?—for an experiment. The plan introduced appeared to him to be principally for the purpose of counteracting the excellent system laid down by the former government, and to manifest his adherence to opinions expressed, he would not say in a moment of factious, but certainly of pointed opposition. With respect to the constitutionality of the measure, he did not think that the ingenuity of the right hon. proposer, great as it was known to be, would be able to establish that. But he would be glad to learn how the principles of the constitution could be said to be preserved, if so large a proportion of the population were to be subjected to the opera- tion of the mutiny bill; to be marched from one end of the kingdom to the other, and subjected to all the privations, restrictions, and subordination, that men who had made a military life their choice, were generally liable to. The bill appeared to him to be one of the greatest infringements upon the liberties of Englishmen that had ever been attempted.

Sir James Pulteney

stated; that he had the greatest confidence in the superiority of a regular army, but it was impossible this country could be defended without having recourse to some other species of force. Our population was not so extensive, or our people so unemployed, as to allow us to raise a large army upon the spur of the occasion. Periods might arrive, when it would be necessary a very large proportion of the people should be ready trained and armed; at the beginning of a war, for instance, when the strength of the enemy's navy might be greater than it was in time of peace, and when the amount of our regular army might be less than it was in time of war. The French army, after the misfortune of general Mack, would never have reached Vienna, if there had been an armed population to obstruct their passage. It was asked, why have recourse to this measure of a general training, when you have a volunteer force ready drilled to your hands? The volunteers, he would admit, were entitled to great praise. He admired their zeal, and in many instances he approved of their discipline; but he would no more trust to voluntary services for the defence of a nation, than he would to voluntary contributions for the support of its finances. He would not enter much into the bill; the execution of it might be attended with difficulties but he was so attached to the principle, that he would give it a fair trial. There were, however, two or three points on which he wished to say a few words: and, first, as to the unconstitutionality of the measure. He could perceive nothing unconstitutional in that exercise of the prerogative vested in his majesty, or in subjecting a part of the population to temporary inconveniences, to avoid greater calamities. The amount of the number of persons to be trained, was, he understood, to be 200,000 men; a force certainly equal to encounter any danger by which this kingdom would ever be menaced. It was in this way that the French armies were first formed, by incorporating the national guards with the regulars. There was another part of the bill which he also much approved; that which provided for the appointment of proper officers. It would destroy all the ends for which this force was to be called together, if it were to be left in a state of insubordination and confusion. As to the expence, considering the security which would be derived from the possession of such a force, he thought that a subject of very inferior regard. He could, indeed, have wished, that the men might be trained, as it took place in certain parts of the continent, free of expence; but as that was not possible, he thought the advantages more than counterbalanced the expenditure.

Mr. Spencer Stanhope

said, that if the bill before the committee was meant to be acted upon, he would not hesitate to pronounce it one of the most obnoxious and oppressive measures that had ever received the sanction of that house. The plan was nothing less than to call out every fourth man in the kingdom capable of bearing arms. According to the old military lists, the persons of that description amounted to 840,000. This was three years ago. The militia service took off 40,000 of them. The volunteers took off about 240,000 more; so that they had to raise 200,000 men out of the residue, not amounting to more than 600,000. Where, he would ask, was the necessity for this most obnoxious measure? Were there not volunteers more than he meant to call out by this bill? The people of England would be led, but they would not be driven, and this was driving them with a vengeance. The expence was not the least of his objections to the bill. The shilling a day would, for the 24 days training, amount to 240,000l. other expences also would be necessary; depots must be constructed, powder and shot purchased, arms provided, officers paid. The etceteras, he was convinced would amount to as much more. This measure professed only to apply to England. What was to be done for Scotland and Ireland? Was the former in such a state of security, that the right hon. secretary did not chuse to meddle with it, and was the latter in that state that he was afraid to meddle with it? He also objected to the bill, because the men who were to be called out under it were not to be under the command of the gentlemen of landed property, their neighbours, and the persons to whom they naturally looked up. As to the popularity of the measure, he could not suppose that a bill which gave government the power to draft and send men to all parts of the kingdom, could have much pretensions in that respect. Did the right hon. secretary expect that it would be easily carried into execution—that there would be no grumbling? The bill, from the perusal he had given it, appeared to him to contain every thing which the right hon. gent. condemned when he sat at a different side of the house from where he was now placed. It contained the reprobated principals of ballot, fine, and substitution. What would be the effect of that clause which went to excuse parishes from the operation of the bill: which turned out a certain number of volunteers; but to encourage such parishes to procure volunteers at any expence? The persons, too, who volunteered, would require excessive pay; seven and six-pence, or perhaps more everyday; and thus the right hon. gent. would sanction that principle which he had so often condemned. With respect to officers, he would defy any man, from reading the bill, to determine whether it was to be the serjeant or the constable. But, perhaps, it was meant to give the command to the serjeant, and to convert the latter into something like a provost-marshal. When this plan of starving out the volunteers had been carried into execution, what, he would ask, was to become of the volunteer officers? Were they to be put into the ranks? Was the captain of a volunteer corps to stand in the ranks between his own groom, perhaps, and his father's chimney. sweeper? The right hon. gent. on former occasions had objected to the principle of fines, and yet he had not blushed to introduce them into the present bill. The parishes were to be subject to fines for not raising their quotas, and thus he bill would operate as a measure of finance, which was precisely the objection upon which the opposers of the general defence act most relied. If ministers wanted more force, they knew where to have it; it was by encouraging and cultivating the volunteer system, and not by the introduction of such an inefficient, oppressive, and unconstitutional plan as that contained in the bill. For his own part, his objection to it was so great, that he should not be sorry to see it treated as a bill was once in that house. When a person who then occupied a seat on the bench on which ministers usually sat (he was one of the lords of the admiralty, he believed) brought in a bill of a very unconstitutional nature, relating, as well as he recollected, to some extension of the impress service, Mr. Dunning, who was then a leading member on the opposite side of the house, made an observation to the following effect:—If the bill had been unsupported, he should have contented himself with moving, that it be simply rejected, but circumstanced as it was, he felt it his duty to move that it be thrown over the table.

Sir W. Milner

could not think the bill was likely to produce so much expence as had been stated. The volunteer system had cost a great deal of money; and in the town which he had the honour to represent, no less than 18,000l. had been subscribed for the volunteers. Although similar exertions had been made all over the country, yet the volunteers had fallen off very much in numbers. He had attended most of the reviews in the neighbourhood of London; and the London volunteers, in the last review before his majesty, had entirely disgraced the appearance that was expected, as no more than 12 or 1500 attended, instead of 10,000 who had attended on a former occasion. He did not conceive that the present bill would at all diminish the number of volunteers; if he did, the measure ,should not have his support.

Lords Castlereagh

concurred with an hon. gent. who had spoken early in the debate (Col. Bagwell), in his surprise, that on that night, which was generally understood to be fixed for the final discussion of this bill, the right hon. gent. who had brought it in had not thought proper to explain more fully the nature of his plan. This was more particularly to be lamented, as this project was not only to be made the law of the land, but as it was immediately to be put into execution. When the right hon. gent. made his opening speech upon his intended military plans, early in the session, there was such a contrariety of opinion respecting his intentions, that it required all the abilities of the right hon. gent. and his colleagues, to make it at all understood. As they had hitherto been able to explain it but very imperfectly, it was not too much to have expected on that night, that the right hon. secretary would have condescended to open his new plan fully and explicitly. Whatever might be his opinion of the bill itself, it was not his intention to oppose the Speaker's leaving the chair, in order that it might be taken into consideration. He felt extremely reluctant in appearing to give any opposition to measures which his majesty's ministers declared to be, in their judgment, necessary for the security of the coun- try .If he could at all separate the abstract principle of the bill from the consideration of the time in which it was brought forward, he did not see much to condemn in it. He had himself formerly given his support to a bill nearly similar to the present, which was brought forward by a right hon. friend of his (Mr. Yorke, but under circumstances very different from what now exist. He was however ready to allow, that there was one incidental advantage which might be expected to result from the present bill, and that was, that a considerable number of men would, by the operation of it, be kept in that situation, that the more regular part of our army could easily take advantage of in case of an invasion. He allowed that such a principle was good, if confined to certain limits, but for this object the plan of the right hon. secretary was too comprehensive. The number which was called for in the first instance, 200,000 men, was undoubtedly more than would be wanting to fill up the losses which might be expected in the regulars and the militia; and as the number was greater than was necessary, so the discipline which was to be given to those men, was much less than what would be necessary, in order to make them efficient. Twenty-four days were quite too little to give that degree of discipline which would be necessary, if there were any idea of employing them with the regular troops. He was convinced that a much smaller number than what was proposed by the right hon. secretary would, with a much greater degree of discipline, be rendered more efficient for the purpose of supporting the regular army in case of invasion. The discipline which was to be obtained in 24 days, was so imperfect, that many general officers would hesitate much to employ such men, and would rather go on with their regular battalions, however they might be reduced. If it were true that the exigencies of the country required a considerable addition to our force, he should prefer in many instances the levy-en-masse bill to that which was now proposed. The principle of that bill rested on the undoubted prerogative of the crown, to call upon the services of all liege subjects in the case of invasion; and the only power that was added by that bill, was the power of organizing and training those men who were subjects to this exercise of prerogative; so that, in the case of invasion, the prerogative might be effectually exerted for the defence of the country. But when that bill was passed, the circumstances of the country were very different from what they were at present. At the beginning of the war, in the year 1803, when that bill was passed, the force of the country amounted to 157,000 men, whereas now its effective force, exclusive of volunteers and of artillery, amounts to 249,000. When it was therefore considered, that at the time the levy-en masse act passed, there were few volunteers, and that at present, besides the considerable increase of our more regular military force, there is a very considerable number of volunteers who have arrived to a respectable state of discipline, the house might hesitate in adopting a system which was brought forward avowedly in opposition to the volunteer corps, which were at that time considered of so much importance, that the advantages of the training bill were to be given up, if such a number of volunteers could be procured as were now on foot well disciplined. At the time that the former bill was passed, two great measures were laid before the house, the army of reserve act, and the bill for calling out the supplementary militia; and yet, at that time, although the dangers of the country were much greater than they were at present, when it was put to the deliberative judgment of the house, whether they would prefer a compulsory levy, similar to what was now proposed, or whether they would chuse the service of volunteers, the house almost unanimously concurred with those who were then his majesty's ministers, that if a number of volunteers could be procured, equal to six times the number of the existing militia, the training bill should not be put into execution. Nothing then could be more clear, than that at a time of the greatest danger the volunteer system was decidedly preferred to the system of a general training, similar to that which was the object of the present bill. Not only was the volunteer system preferred, but there was a distinct assurance from his majesty, through the secretaries of state, which was most distinctly understood by the different districts throughout the kingdom, that the training bill would not be carried into execution in any county or district, that produce a number of volunteers equal to the proportion laid down of six times the existing militia. As in the comparative statement our security appeared to be much greater now than when those assurance were originally given, it appeared to him that they were a bar in good faith to the present measure. Even if the policy were undoubted, he must make some observa- tions as to the necessity of the measure at the present time. He considered the present mode as less efficient than that which had formerly been proposed by his right hon. friend. If an additional force were wanted, it appeared to him much better that they should be trained according to the provisions of the levy-en-masse act, than according to the system which was to be introduced by the present bill. Those who were to have been trained by the former act were still to be liable to the exercise of the prerogative, and, in case of invasion, that prerogative would attach to them; whereas, by the present system, the men who had been trained for a year would be disbanded at the end of the year, and could not be called upon to repel an invasion. There was another advantage in the former bill: the men were not only to be trained, but officered, whereas in the present bill, there appeared no provision or regulation for officering them. The training under the former bill was not to be limited to a certain number of days, but to continue until the persons could obtain a proper certificate of being fit to serve. The great objection, however, which occurred to him, was what this new-raised force were to be? If they were to be an officered corps, then where were the officers to be found? It would be absurd to suppose that country gentlemen would be forward to embark in that situation, and he feared that it might be necessary to ballot for the officers as well as for the men. It was impossible that any gentleman could voluntarily chuse the employment of officering for 24 days a number of men collected in this manner; and as soon as these men had completed their year, another set of men would present themselves equally ignorant of the first rudiments of military discipline. This plan, instead of bringing forward a number of men for the defence of the country, did, in fact, (after a little trifling drilling) discharge them from the exercise of the royal prerogative, and in that respect, was much less efficient than the measure of his right hon. friend. If the enemy were to come before they were trained, it appeared as if there was nothing to oppose to them. The measure which was proposed appeared to him not only objectionable in a military point of view, but still more in a financial view. He conceived, that a more efficient military force could be procured for less money. When the former bill required, that those who were subject to the royal prerogatives should be previously organ- ized and trained, it by no means intended that this training should be attended with great expense to the country. It was an object which concerned the safety of those who were liable to be called out, as much as it did the security of the public; for it was evident, that men who should be utterly ignorant of military affairs, when they were called out for service, would be exposed to much more danger than if they had been previously organized and drilled. It certainly was intended, that those men who had no other support but their labour, might claim a shilling a day, when the day of exercise should fall on a day of labour; but it was never intended to give regular pay to men who were called on to learn that which would be necessary for themselves to have learned, previous to the time they might be liable to be called upon by the royal prerogative. The expences of the present measure would be very serious; and he could venture to assert that, for less money, a hundred or a hundred and fifty thousand men could be kept up, equal in discipline to what the militia are in time of peace, and which would be applicable to the defence of the country, in case of invasion, If the enemy were really to land in the country, he apprehended more of confusion than strength from the assistance of such a body of men; and he was really afraid, that the country would be completely disgusted by such a system. It appeared to him, that nothing could be worse policy, than to bring a plan forward which would completely disgust the country. It had been said by some, that we should be prepared for a long and arduous contest. He could not say whether this was the present opinion of his majesty's ministers, but he, for his part, considered it as sound doctrine. If this were the fact, nothing could be worse than to disgust the nation generally with the war, and incline the minds of every one to prefer almost any sort of a peace to the continuance of a war, in which the honour and lasting interests of the country were concerned. On the ground of general policy, it appeared to him most extraordinary, that this nation should be advised to adopt such a loose description of force, precisely at the time when all the other nations were giving it up. Whatever might be said of the peasants of the Tyrol and Suabia, he was informed, that they had never been efficient, except against an army which had been routed. He had never heard of an arued peasantry being very effectual against a regular army in full force. However that might be, Austria now appeared to place no dependance on such a description of force, and chose to organize a force resembling as nearly as possible our volunteer corps. The opinion of the French government was also pronounced on the comparative merits of the two systems; for, when Bonaparte was obliged to carry all the regular army of France into Germany, it was not on the peasantry, but it was upon corps similar to the volunteers that he called, and to whom he trusted the defence of the country. The system, however, which was now brought forward, was neither that of an armed peasantry, (for it appeared that the gentlemen on whom this bill was to operate were not to be trusted with the possession of arms), nor was it at all like a volunteer system. This system was not to be acted on without a breach of faith to those counties and districts to whom the royal assurance was given, that if they furnished their quota of volunteers the training act should not be enforced. He could not perceive any necessity for this breach of faith, as the country was infinitely stronger, and its danger from the enemy less, than at the time when the levy-en-masse act was passed. If there really existed any immediate danger, the country would submit to any plan that they could understand for repelling it; but he was really afraid the present plan originated rather from the desire of satisfying the military opinions of the right honourable secretary (Mr. Windham), and for the sake of redeeming that pledge, which he had somewhat indiscreetly given to the house. It did not appear to him, that the measure was at all called for from the relative situation of this country and the enemy.

Mr. H. Martin

could not conceive how it could with justice be called a wild theory, to discipline for 28 days in the year, those persons who might be called upon to assist the regular army in the event of an invasion. It was too much to call every variation from the established rules, a mere experiment. Every amendment of old acts of parliament, every new act of parliament, might with equal justice be called an experiment. One hon. gent. (Mr. S. Stanhope) seemed to consider that it was a great breach of faith, that those who had subscribed for volunteers should be liable to serve themselves. The present bill, however, would not go farther than the old militia laws, or oblige any one to serve that was past the age of 45. The fines upon the parishes were by no means as severe as under the militia laws, and would only ope- rate, when there was any contumacy in the parish refusing to proceed to the ballot. He was convinced the bill would not at all diminish the number of volunteers; but that, on the contrary, a great number of persons would be enrolled in those corps, in order to exempt them from this service.

Mr. Matthews

commented on the language uniformly used by the right hon. author of this bill against the volunteers. That language, while the right hon. gent. was in opposition, might be overlooked, as the sentiments of an individual. But now that he might be conceived to speak with the voice of government, his language must, and had created alarm and discontent among that gallant body. In any services which the volunteers might render to the right hon. gent. and his colleagues after such language, well might they exclaim in the terms of the insulted Jew, in the Merchant of Venice, "You spit on me," &c. The plan of the right hon. gent. towards the volunteers must, in his judgment, tend ultimately to disband the volunteer corps. For such as were of the higher orders he would disgust by depriving them of their rank, such as were proud he would offend by talking lightly of their services and efficiency, and such as were of force he would disable from serving by depriving them of their pay.

Sir W. Young

contended that the measure was perfectly constitutional, as every one must be convinced, who had read the history of the country. He looked on this as a permanent measure, and in that view he thought that the soldiers who would be discharged under a former bill, would be exceedingly useful in being officers for this force. This nation ought not to trust for its defence merely to the opinions and inclinations of individuals, as it must in a great measure do, if the volunteer system alone was depended on for that purpose. Whoever sat on the throne of France after Bonaparte, though a Bourbon, must act and conduct himself as the head of a great military people, and there was no way of meeting this danger from our enemies, but by rendering this nation in some degree military, through the great mass of its population. He did not disapprove of drilling on Sundays, as he thought patriotism a religious duty. It was to the great attention paid to the training of the population, even from the earliest youth of the people, that the recovery of Jersey was owing, after the enemy had entered St. Helier's. The volunteer system would afford the gentleman an opportunity of avoiding being placed between his own groom and his father's chimney-sweeper, a circumstance so much dreaded by an hon. gent. over the way.

Mr. W. Smith

was of opinion that the volunteers had saved the country, but that the system with respect to them was neither permanent nor intended to be so, and he saw no reason why persons in that situation should be offended, because their assistance was not sought in a way not suited to the nature of a temporary institution. A most singular objection had been made to this new project, because it had not this defect, and was permanent in its application: to him this was not an objection, but a motive for the adoption of it; and the bill enabled his majesty to draw from the robust part of the population, 2 or 300,000 men armed for the national defence. The plan of the military service which was concurrent with this measure, by throwing annually 5 or 10,000 disciplined men into the general mass of the inhabitants subject to this service, would provide the peasantry with instructors, who equally with their knowledge and their example, would contribute to give spirit and method to those levies. By the military education this bill was calculated to give to all orders of the community, in succession, these islands would not only be rendered impregnable, but the measure would preclude every attempt on our shores, by convincing the enemy, that against an armed nation all his efforts must be ineffectual. We should then hear no more of flottillas, no more of invasions; the enemy would say, whatever success we may have in attacking her colonial possessions, Britain is herself invulnerable. What pretence could the noble lord (Castlereagh) have to say that this bill would be afflicting to this country? Could it be afflicting for men in habits of corporeal exertion daily to be collected 28 days in the year, for the purpose of training them to military duty? parliament designed to give no cause of disgust to the volunteers: it only wished to avoid an expence inconsistent with the welfare of the country, and to provide other means not destructive of, but auxiliary to, the system under which arms were put into their hands.

Mr. Perceval

had waited for a long time to see whether the right hon. gent. (Mr. Windham) would have given any explanation of his bill, that we might know whether it was intended to operate the destruction of the volunteers, or to form a subsidiary to them—for both objects had been ascribed to it. He considered the measure as unconstitutional and dangerous to our liberties, as a breach of faith on the part of parliament, and a breach of common sense. He ridiculed the idea of neglecting the interest of the present moment, and looking to a period of 7 or 14 years hence, when this force might be officered by discharged soldiers. The object of the measure was to substitute a compulsory system instead of that of the volunteers, which latter was preferable in every point of view, and he thought that the good sense of the volunteers, though he had great confidence in it, would be put to a severe trial. He would read the words of the right hon. gent. from the Parliamentary Debates, published by one who the right hon. secretary himself had said deserved a Golden Statue, and who therefore was not likely to give an unfavourable report of his words.

Mr. Paull

spoke to order, and said it was irregular to quote from a former debate.

The Speaker

said, he had always understood that the strict rule of the house was, not to admit such citation of words used in a former debate; but at the same time, this rigid adherence was sometimes not required.

Mr. Paull.

I say the hon. and learned gent. is manifestly disorderly.

The Speaker.

When the speaker delivers an opinion, in which the house acquiesces, there is an end of the question.

Mr. Bathurst.

I must call the attention of the house to the respect due to the chair. The hon. gent. is young, and he may not be aware that there is no fresh appeal after the speaker has laid down the rule, and the house has acquiesced in it.

Mr. Perceval

said his object was merely to justify the epithet he had applied, and he thought the interference of the hon. gent. wholly unnecessary. It would however be recollected, that the volunteers had been denominated a depository of panic, of which an experienced officer would be glad to be disencumbered, as a prudent wrestler would of the unnecessary raiment by which his muscular action was impeded. He had intimated that no sufficient elucidation had been afforded. Was this complaint well founded? There were 300,000 volunteers, and 200,000 men were to be raised under this act. Yet if the former were to be disbanded, only 200,000 would remain. Was this the intention? What were the expences attending this scheme? What method was to be adopted with regard to the officers over this armed peasantry? To what extent, and in what manner, was this to operate on the population? Nothing of this sort had been explained, and yet the house was called upon to sanction such a project. To the particular clauses of the bill he should have another opportunity to advert; thus much had occurred to him with respect to the general principle, to which he must object, from every notion he could entertain of sound discretion.

Mr. Bathurst

was surprised at his hon. and learned friend, when he talked of this bill as being opposed to our free constitution, and liberty and justice, and so forth; and not less at the opposition given to this bill by those who supported a former one of the same tendency. If this bill were an infringment on the rights of the people, that was so also; if this were a refuge for the volunteers, that likewise possessed the same character. It was no disparagement to so numerous a body as the volunteers, to suppose that they were not all animated by the ardour of patriotism; every man who had at all attended to the philosophy of the human mind, must be convinced of the variety of feelings by which it was actuated; and to provide against any defection in this useful institution, the new project now recommended was designed. It had been intimated, that there was no necessity for the bill, because the immediate danger was over. Who could look to the posture of Europe at this day, and say the times were not perilous? Was the calamity of the hour only to be regarded, and were we not to look to future exigencies? He admitted that the volunteers had been the salvation of the country, but was no diversion of the accumulated power of France against these islands now to be apprehended? Were we wholly insensible to the vast augmentation of the power of the enemy? Was Bonaparte so diligently employed in making kings, that he never turned his thoughts to unmaking kings? We used to think the wooden walls of old England were sufficient for her defence; wisdom had exploded this prejudice, and we were now to resort to additional means of protection. With this view the object of the bill was not to reduce the volunteers, but to do what was subsidiary to that resource. It was the grossest misconstruction both of the intentions of the right hon. gent. and of parliament, to con- clude that the volunteer system was to be abolished. The act to which he had alluded of 1800, said, that if persons would volunteer, the statute should not take effect in the district where the people so far accommodated themselves to the designs of government: they came forward under their own officers, and they were accepted by the crown. Was it to be then said, that because the king had acceded to such proposals, ministers were pledged not to adopt the present measure on the broad ground of political necessity. As to the volunteer bill, this was its auxiliary; so also it was to the regulations for limited service. If the volunteers were better disciplined than the corps under this bill, the terms under which these were engaged were more convenient to the public service; but the great recommendation of the plan was, that it would immediately train a large body of men, and by the succession contrived it would in time instruct in the use of arms the Whole population of the empire. It had been said, that danger was to be apprehended from calling out the population of the refuse of the capital. If any such danger really existed, it was easy to avoid it, by not requiring the services of those who were unfit to be entrusted with arms in their hands. All the arguments that were resorted to with reference to the peasantry of the Tyrol, as far as they went, were clearly in favour of the present bill; but a fair comparison, in such a case, could not easily be drawn between the subjects of an arbitrary government and those of a free monarchy. It was said, that to draft the men raised under this bill into the regiments, was obnoxious. In case of invasion the king could order any man to take the field; was it then to be said, that it was improper, under such a contingency, that those levies should be employed where they could be most useful? and was it to be supposed, that on such an occasion the people of this country of right and liberty, would not be anxious to stand forward in the defence of all that was valuable to themselves and their posterity? This bill has been erroneously represented as not recognizing the volunteers, like the former: it said, in the most distinct manner, that if a man be a volunteer, or shall become one, he shall not serve under it: it not only recognized the volunteers, but indicated the wish of the legislature, that their number should be augmented. Some allusion to words used by the right hon. gent. (Mr. Windham), had been irregularly adverted to; but, whatever were the terms employed, looking to the measures of ministers, it was clearly their intention to favour the volunteer system; and with this view, if any were not pleased with the society they met with under the present measure, they might select their own corps of volunteers, and remove the objection. If the volunteers, in the event of invasion, were to be put on garrison duty, how were the ranks to be filled up in the army, after a destructive engagement, more advantageously than by such a resource as was provided by this bill? He would defy any man to discover an expedient that could more effectually answer this end. The island had alone been preserved by the successive measures adopted: this was one of the most valuable, and the enemy would abandon all future hope of subduing; our territory, when they saw an armed and disciplined nation ready to present their bodies as a rampart for its defence. It was upon these ground that he approved of this bill, whether he looked at the immediate or the remote effect, and he was sensible that the labourer or the artisan would not in such a pursuit regard the shillings and sixpences he should lose in substracting a few days from his ordinary occupations. He was not at all apprehensive of any jealousies tween the volunteers and these new levies; they were admirably adapted to harmonize with, and assist each other; and with a proper attention to call forth the strength and spirit of the country, he trusted that, under Providence, no human power could endanger our security and independence.

Mr. Secretary Windham

said, that one of the principal imputations of blame to him urged by the opposers of this measure was, that he had not introduced it to the house or commenced the debate with a speech explanatory of his own views of it at large; but to do this, he must have repeated every speech he had made upon this topic in the course of the last 3 years. Another objection urged against him was, that he had on various occasions undervalued, and treated with contempt, the volunteers, and that this bill was calculated to supersede them altogether. The first part of the charge he utterly denied, and declared it was his wish, often repeated, that the volunteers should continue: and this bill so far from being calculated, or intended to supersede the volunteer system, had for its object merely to render the volunteers that which they were originally in- tended to be, according to the principle avowed by those who first proposed their establishment namely, a body of men serving their country at their own expence. Another objection to this bill was, that its principle was compulsory, and therefore repugnant to the feelings of Englishmen. But gentlemen who used this argument, seemed to forget that there was such a thing existing in this country as a militia force, entirely mustered and recruited upon the same principle, namely, by ballot, which he always understood to be a compulsory principle; and that the army of reserve, and the former training bill, for which those very gentlemen had voted, and who were now so much shocked at the idea of compulsion, were carried on upon the very same compulsory principle of ballot; and without compulsion, and expence, which was another objection to the bill, he should be glad to know how it was possible to have any public force in the country? Another objection to the bill was, that its principle was unjust, oppressive, and a violation of a positive contract entered into by parliament and the country; namely, that if they raised, in the several districts, a certain number of men, that they should be exempt from the operation of a somewhat similar principle under a former bill: but he begged to know how such a contract, entered into under circumstances existing at that moment, was for ever after to tie up the hands of parliament, and prevent them, under any change of circumstances, from adopting measures absolutely necessary to save the country from destruction? Upon the whole, the right. hon. secretary contended, that the present bill, so far from going to abolish the volunteer system, went hand in hand with it, and was immediately calculated to keep it from going to pieces: and, in answer to the arguments of gentlemen deduced from his speeches uttered 3 years ago, he asserted that the phrases attributed to him, as in ridicule or contempt to the volunteers, were unfounded or misrepresented.

Mr. Canning

reserved to himself the privilege of delivering his sentiments upon its principle, upon the report of the committee.—The question was then put, and carried for the committal of the bill, without a division. The house accordingly went into a committee, and the chairman reported progress, and obtained leave to sit again on Thursday.—Adjourned at 2 o'clock on Wednesday morning.