Mr. Robsonrose, pursuant to notice, to call the attention of the house to the accounts on the table, with respect to the expenditure of the public money in the barrack department. In times like the present, when the national expenditure was no less than one million and a half weekly; when the national burthens were rapidly increasing, and likely to increase still farther, he did not think it necessary to make any apology to the house for attempting to occupy its attention upon the subject of the flagrant abuses, which, he had no doubt of being able to shew, ex- 1176 isted in the department to which his motion would refer. It was now nearly two months since he had felt it his duty to mention this subject in the house; but, at that time, he was by no means so well acquainted with the mal-practices which prevailed for these ten years back, as he had since become. He was now fully satisfied, that the statement he before made was even below the fact. The house would recollect, that, when he brought the business forward, many gentlemen seemed to doubt the correctness of his information; and that, in consequence of such doubt, he received a check that was calculated to discourage the prosecution of his object; but no such check should ever avail to restrain him from the performance of his duty, or damp his feelings in the pursuit of the public good. However, notwithstanding this check, it turned out immediately afterwards, that the rectitude of his pursuit was recognised even by those from whom the check proceeded. For the noble lord (H. Petty), whom he now saw in his place, but a few days afterwards brought forward precisely the same motions, which, when proposed by him, were rejected. But, at the tune of that rejection, he was fully persuaded that the noble lord was not at all aware of the enormous abuses that were going on; and, it was but justice to that noble lord to say, that he immediately afterwards applied himself to a diligent investigation of the subject; and the result of that investigation was, that the noble lord found the case much worse than it had been described by him; in consequence of which discovery, the noble lord took the course already alluded to, and did him the honour of copying Ins motions. Now, it turned out, that the rent of the barns which he before referred to, and which were hired for the use of the soldiery in the Isle of Wight, were some time since reduced to one half of that for which they were originally let; yet such was their value, that he could assure the house, that were a farther reduction of one half their present rent to take place, as it must, there would still be paid for them even double more than they were worth. But he had to state, that a great many more buildings, of a similar description, let on similar terms, had undergone no reduction whatever. If the house would turn their attention to this matter, they would meet, in every step of their enquiry, circumstances equally calculated to excite their surprise and indignation, Gen- 1177 tlemen would hardly believe that the sum of 200l. a year had been paid for shells of barns in the Isle of Wight. In referring to this part, he took merely a single speck of the barrack accounts; for, in order to avoid confusion, he did not mean, at present, to extend his investigation to the whole of the barrack accounts, which were confessedly the most confused in Europe. Therefore, he should confine himself, in illustration of the cause of his motion, to Sandown Bay barracks, respecting which, he was possessed of the most satisfactory information. But yet the communications he received were such as impressed him with the propriety of extending his motion to all temporary barracks; and, it would appear astonishing to the public, that many of these barracks, although hired and paid for by the week, were often actually unoccupied for a considerable part of the year. TO expose such improvident conduct, such Scandalous waste of the public money, and to prevent its continuance, was the object of the motion which he should have the honour of submitting to the house. The hon. gent. concluded, with moving—"That there be laid before this house, a return of all the buildings, of every description, rented or hired by government, and used as barracks or places for lodging, or containing officers and soldiers of the army, or of persons and horses attached to the army; that the said return do embrace every building which has been so rented, or hired, and so used, in the whole of G. Britain, between the 1st day of Jan. 1793, and the 24th of June, 1806: That the said return be exhibited in 15 columns, placed in the order, and containing the several heads here following, viz.—1st, The date of the year and of the month and day when each building respectively was taken; 2d, The county and parish in which the building is situate; 3d, The name or phrase describing the building; 4th, The number of officers that are, or have been, generally quartered or lodged in the building; 5th, The number of non-commissioned officers and men, and of horses, that are or have been generally quartered or lodged in the building; 6th, The name of the proprietor of the building; 7th, The name and rank of the officer or person by whom the building was taken on the part of government; 8th, The weekly rent or hire of the building; 9th, The yearly rent or hire of the building; 10th, The name and rank of the officer or person, or officers or persons through whose hands the rent, or 1178 hire, has been paid to the proprietor of the building; 11th, The time when any alteration (if any) in the rent or hire of the building was made; 12th, The weekly rent or hire of the building, subsequent to such alteration; 13th, The yearly rent or hire of the building, subsequent to such alteration; 14th, the time when the building was given up, if not now occupied by government; 15th, The account of the whole of the sums which have been expended in repairs upon the building: and the said returns do exhibit all the names and descriptions of the said buildings, following one another in due chronological order, the building first taken by government standing first, and the building last taken standing last."
§ Lord H. Pettysaid, that when he first interfered in this business, in putting the previous question on the hon. gent.'s motion, it was because he was convinced, that very considerable abuses prevailed in the barrack department; and the only objection he then had to the motion of the hon. member was, that a military board was now sitting, especially appointed by parliament, for waking an enquiry into this very department. From this committee, a report was expected to be received, he believed, to-morrow; and were he in the place of the hon. gent., he should defer his motion till he had seen that report. If, however, the hon. gent. thought fit to persist in his motion, he should certainly make no objection to it.
The Secretary at Warwished to know of the hon. gent. whether he meant to ground any enquiry on the papers he had moved. for? As he thought it not quite candid to move for voluminous papers, in which the characters of individuals were implicated, which papers went abroad, and those characters became injured, without having any opportunity allowed of defending themselves; he thought, that as there was a board of commissioners now sitting, which was expressly appointed by parliament, for investigating the accounts of the barrack department, the house should not sutler any other enquiry to be entered upon, till that commission was closed, without repealing the act by which it was constituted.
Mr. Robsonsaid, the right hon. gent. who just sat down, must surely have forgotten what passed about 3 weeks ago, when he was asked by that right hon. gent. himself, whether he meant to go on with the barrack enquiry? He said, he thought the business had been taken out of his 1179 hands by the right hon. the chancellor of the exchequer; but if he did not pursue it, he (Mr. Robson) would make a motion on the subject. The right hon. secretary wished him to name the day, as he meant to move for other papers, that would throw more light on the subject. Thus had he been goaded to come forward with the business, and now he had done so, he was told he ought to wait for the report of the commissioners. These commissioners had now been sitting 13 months, and, in all that time, had only produced one report, which might, with case, have been made in 3 weeks; for it was only an account of the one per cent. which had been overcharged by gen. De Lancey, from his first appointment to the office of barrack-master-general. A Mr. Standbank had said, that it might be 3 years before this commission was closed; and yet he was told, he was to wait for the report of commissioners who had only made one report in 13 months, respecting one office, and they had five offices to enquire into. He looked upon such commissioners to be more maskers of enquiry, than unfolders of it. Those abuses, he well knew, were at this moment going on to as great an extent as ever; and as these commissioners were so slow in their motions, he was determined he would not forego his privilege of a member of parliament, of pushing forward an enquiry as speedily as possible. The house would recollect what good had been produced by the naval enquiry. He proposed to enquire into the state of the canteens, and asserted, that the rent of the canteens would pay the expenses of the barracks. He should then be glad to know what had become, or been done with all the money that had been received from canteens; on which subject he wished to fish for some information.
Mr. Martinsaid, he wished to see an enquiry instituted in that house, rather that by commissioners; because the latter, from the slow progress they made, seemed to look on the people of England as able to bear peculation, in the same way as cooks did the skinning of eels; because they were so well used to it, they felt nothing from it.
The Secretary at Warwished to know what farther measure the hon. gent. meant to ground on his present motion.
§ Mr. Paullthen made some observations with regard to a Mr. Atkins, the late barrack-master, who had been dismissed. He stated him to have been formerly an honourable character, and recommended by Sir R. Abercromby to the situation which 1180 he held. It was not found out that he was a pilferer, till he had discovered certain peculations of others, and bad given information of them to the war-office. Till then he was never found out to be dishonest. Sums had been given by way of rent that were perfectly incredible; and in consequence of his information, they were reduced from 1100l. to 500l. He had been told, also, that these barracks were first furnished by government, and then immediately gutted. When Atkins gave information of those abuses, he was immediately dismissed, without even being confronted by his accusers. He concluded with cordially supporting the motion of the hon. gent., whom he was proud to call his friend.
Mr. Canningobserved, that it had been asserted for a fact, that this Atkins was dismissed on the affidavit of a man who had suffered by Atkins' giving information of his peculations. He had no reason to suppose that the dismissal was not right, but he could wish that the matter should be stated to the satisfaction of the house.
The Secretary at Wardenied that the barrack-master had been dismissed on account of any information he had given, but merely because there were inaccuracies in his accounts.
§ Mr. Paullconsidered it very extraordinary, that this man, who appeared now to be the most improper of all persons, should be so long continued in a situation of trust and confidence, that none but an honest should be placed in.
§ Mr. Secretaty Windhamsaid, that he knew nothing of this barrack-master when he was first appointed, and had only heard that he was an officer somewhat distressed, and that there was nothing then said against his character. It was not surprising that the discovery should have been made in the manner it was; for the fact was, that there was so little public spirit generally going, that it usually proceeded from the irritation of sonic private quarrel, that transactions of this sort came to light. He did not see how parliament could take the business into its own hands, or do more than generally recommend it to the commissioners to enquire diligently into abuses of this nature. If these commissioners did not do their duty, other commissioners should be appointed; but he did not see how that house could examine into every separate abuse that might be complained of.
Mr. Bastardthought it was the duty of the house to look diligently into abuses, when they were stated, and, as guardians of 1181 the public purse, to be generally distrustful of them. He did not expect much good from one set of commissioners being appointed to supersede another. The military commissioners had cost the nation the sum of 10,000l. for their labours the first year. He thought the punishment of the individual, by removal from his office, would do more good, in the way of example, than ten commissions. Common fame reported, that there were most enormous abuses in the barrack department: that the nation was often charged for pulling down stone buildings, convenient for lodging men, as much money as was spent in building wooden barracks in unwholesome situations. He thought the whole system ought to be examined accurately.
The Secretary at Warobserved, that the dismissal of any barrack-master was only done upon the report of the barrack-master-general.
Mr. Robsonthen said, that he never thought the right hon. secretary at war capable of discharging Mr. Atkins upon any improper ground, for it was not in his nature; nor did he intend introducing the name of that gentleman into the debate, as his enquiries had proceeded a great way before lie ever heard of him. As it was thought right to ask him, what his objects were in this motion? he would honestly answer, first, that he meant to save the money of the public; and, secondly, that he might save to the amount of 500,000l. a year in the barrack department only. At present these accounts were scarcely settled in the course of two years; and he saw no reason why they should not, like those of the board of works, be audited and passed quarterly; and why they should not, in the same manner as that board, have a comptroller and auditor to themselves. Another of his objects was, to make the rents of the canteens pay the rents of the barracks, for which they were amply sufficient. He said, it was now intimated to him, that a report from the commissioners might be expected to-morrow or the day after; bat though that might assist him, it was not likely to embrace all his objects. There was an unfounded report abroad, that out of the 658 members of that house, there was not one who was careful, or capable, to attend to the public accounts; but it was his intention to shew the contrary; and that it could be done by the bare knowledge of the lour rules of arithmetic. It was not his wish or intention to state; at this time 1182 aggravating things, but be would mention a report, that the persons concerned in this department had interest enough to have barracks made in the most unhealthy situations; and that, in consequence of it, so great a mortality had prevailed amongst the king's troops and prisoners, that the inhabitants of the parishes would not suffer them to be buried in the church-yards. As to the present commission, he observed, that when it was appointed on the 5th of January, instead of going back in search of old abuses, they should have immediately stopped those that were then existing. The consequence would have been, that a great expenditure would have been saved, and we should not now be paying 474l. a year for buildings not worth 170l. If the house chose to employ him in this enquiry, he would set about it to-morrow morning, and soon make them a report which would produce an important saving of the public money. The hon. gent. then moved,"That there be laid before this house, a return of the canteens or houses for vending beer and liquors, which have been set up at the several buildings, rented or hired by government, and used as barracks, or places for lodging or containing officers and soldiers of the army, or of persons attached to the army. That the said return do include every such canteen, in the whole of Great Britain, existing between the 1st of Jan. 1793, and the 24th of June, 1506. That the said return be exhibited in distinct columns, placed in the order, and containing the several heads here following, viz.: 1st, The parish, place, or station, in alphabetical order; 2d, The date of the year, month, and day of letting each canteen respectively; 3d, The name and rank of the person or persons who let the canteen; 4th, The name of the person or persons who rent, or rented the canteen; 5th, The weekly or annual rent of the canteen; 6th, The name and rank of the person or persons through whose hands the rent has been received, on the part of government; 7th, The name, or phrase, descriptive of the building so let as a canteen; 8th, The number of non-commissioned officers and men, generally quartered, or lodged in the several buildings used as barracks, to which such canteen is, or has been attached."
§ Mr. Paullseconded the motion; and was proceeding to remark upon some misrepresentation of what he said before; when
§ Mr. Windhamreminded the house, that such a course was disorderly.
§ The Speakersaid, that it was certainly irregular, in seconding a motion, to go into the subject of a preceding one.
§ The Speakerrepeated, that he was proceeding in a disorderly manner; and if he wished to correct a misrepresentation, the fit mode would be to take another occasion of doing so.
The Secretary at War ,supposing himself to be alluded to, wished, that if the orders of the house admitted it, the hon. gent. might be allowed to afford the explanation he wished for.
§ Mr. Paullsaid, that if he was not allowed to explain, he must withdraw his seconding the motion. He thought, that in seconding a motion, he was entitled to give his reasons for doing so.
Mr. Rosesaid, he never knew that the canteens were made private property, but were always accounted for to government.
Mr. Robsonreplied, that though some of these canteens produced a rent of 1500l. a year, very little of the money was accounted for to government. The brewers often gave money to the barrack-master, for permission to sell their beer in them, by which the public were defrauded in the revenue; and it was farther increased, by the sale of nothing but smuggled spirits in them, not only in the Isle of Wight, but even in the county where the right hon. gent. (Mr. Rose) resided!—This motion as well as the former were agreed to.
Mr. Robsonnext observed, that the subject of his next motion was of great importance to the public interest, as he would, if permitted, prove at their bar, that the rent of the canteens, and the sale of manure alone, would, if properly accounted for, defray the whole of the rents paid for the barracks. Sonic parts of the information which he had received, were almost too bad to mention to the house. Amongst the abuses in that department, he would state, that a Mrs. Parker, who, it seemed, was a favoured friend of major Lewis, had hired a house of a tailor for 30l. a year, and through his interest let it for barracks at 70l. When questioned on the subject, she said, "As I find every one robbing government, I do not see why I may not have a little in the scramble." He then made a detailed motion relative to the 1184 dung, ashes, broken straw, &c. &c. sold; which motion was negatived.