AUDITORSHIP OF THE EXCHEQUER.

HC Deb 04 February 1806 vol 6 cc148-52

Mr. Fox ,

pursuant to the notice which he had yesterday given, rose to submit his motion to the house, for leave to bring in a bill to enable a person holding the office of auditor of the exchequer to hold also the office of a commissioner of the treasury. The object of his bill was to legalise the holding of these two appointments, by enabling the auditor to appoint a deputy for discharging the duties of that office. He had before stated, that he entertained no doubt himself on the subject. Yet, as possibly other gentlemen might not feel as he did, it was the wish of the noble lord concerned, that nothing should be withheld from the house, but that all the circumstances connected with the transaction should be before the public. But as the idea was gone abroad, that the auditor of the exchequer was a check upon the lords of the treasury, he thought it right to advert to that circumstance. The fact was, that he was not a check upon them, and it was absurd to suppose, that any officer whose appointment, was in the gift of the lords of the treasury could be any check upon them. He should hope, therefore, that no difficulty would be felt in complying with this measure. Nobody, he thought, would be of opinion that the office should be given up by the noble lord. and on that account he trusted that no objection would be felt to the bill. He had yesterday stared the case of lord Halifax in the reign of George I. In that case lord Halifax had given the auditorship nominally to his brother, whilst he virtually continued in the enjoyment of it himself. The noble lord might, in the present instance, act upon that precedent, but he was better pleased that the, transaction should wholly rest on legislative grounds. He therefore begged leave "to move for leave to bring in a bill for removing certain doubts respecting the appointment of any person holding the office of auditor of the exchequer to the office of one of the commissioners of the treasury." With respect to the doubts, when they should come to the preamble of the bill, that expression might be struck out, if gentlemen should be of opinion that no doubts existed.

Mr. Rose

declared, that no man in that house could be less disposed than himself to throw any impediments in the way of the noble lord's appointment to the office in question: on the contrary, it gave him the highest satisfaction, when he understood the appointment was to take place, because he wits sure it would be a most efficient appointment: but with respect to the duties of that situation which the noble lord already held, and those of the situation to which he was recently appointed, no two offices on earth, in his opinion, could be more incompatible, nor could any thing be more incongruous with the spirit and meaning of the law which settled the usages of the treasury, than that the auditor of exchequer, avowedly and obviously appointed for the purpose of check and controul over the lords of the treasury, and other officers connected there with, to prevent the improper issue of public money, should hold an office in which he was to be the check and controul upon himself. The statute of the 9th of William III. passed for the very purpose of recognising and establishing the ancient course of proceedings in the exchequer, enacts, that no money shall be issued from the exchequer, even by the order of a lord of the treasury, for any purpose whatever, unless such order be signed by the auditor of the exchequer, for without his signature such an order would be a mere nullity. This had been the practice in his own day, and he had witnessed instances where such controul had the most salutary effect, in preventing the improper issues of money. It bad been the uniform practice of modern times, to separate the offices of lord of the treasury and auditor of the exchequer, and this was the first attempt he had ever witnessed to conjoin them. The case of lord Halifax, he, by no means, conceived to bear out the principle. Lord Halifax was first lord of the treasury, and chancellor of the exchequer, when the auditorship became vacant. He did not then take the office to himself, but gave it to his brother. When afterwards he resigned his former offices, he sat down with the auditorship of the exchequer. As to the privilege of appointing a deputy, to exercise the controul over the very person who appointed him, and who also might dismiss him at pleasure, he should be glad to know, how the check required by the statute of William in this case could be obtained, as it was not very probable, that a deputy, so appointed, would be very strict under such circumstances. With respect to the case of Mr. Pelham, he was appointed a lord of the treasury in 1743, and was not appointed to the auditorship of the exchequer till eight years afterwards, and then did not hold both offices together. The proposed bill, instead of removing any doubts upon the subject, for in fact none existed, nor could any thing be more clear and definite than the established regulations on this head, proposed to alter the whole course of the exchequer; and therefore it ought not to pass under any other title than as a bill to alter the course of the exchequer, and to enable the noble lord to hold two offices totally opposite and incompatible in their nature.

Mr. C. W. Wynne

combated the arguments of the last speaker, from a compa rison of the different clauses of the act of parliament, and maintained that the auditor of the exchequer was not meant to be a check on the first lord of the treasury, but to see that the several sums granted were applied to the particular services for which they were voted. As to the idea, that the auditor of the exchequer could never be a proper check on the first lord of the treasury, if the first lord of the treasury were also to hold the office of auditor, and to be allowed, as proposed by the present bill, to discharge the duties of it by deputy, he declared that he could see no more ground for that supposition in the case of a deputy, than where, as in the precedents alluded to, the person to act as auditor was appointed by the first lord of the treasury. Whatever evils could be supposed to arise out of the mode now proposed, must, he presumed to think, have been far greater under the former practice. At all events, if there was any thing wrong in the two offices remaining really though not ostensibly in the same person, no man, he hoped, would dispute that it was better, and more honourable, that such arrangement should take place openly and fairly, and with the approbation of parliament. The constitution of the exchequer, too, he begged it to be observed, had undergone a considerable alteration since the time of its first establishment. The auditor at that time derived a principal part, if not the whole, of the emoluments of his office from a per centage on the issues from the exchequer, thereby giving him an interest in the amount of such issues. Now, he was remunerated by a salary.

The Attorney-General

declared that nothing could be farther from his wish than to throw unnecessary impediments in the way of the present bill. Of all the proposed appointments of which he had heard, the one now alluded to, was that which gave him most pleasure; and if what he had to say on the subject should induce the noble lord to take another office, he should feel very serious concern from the circumstance. He wished that such steps should be taken in the matter as should forward it as far as the hon. mover could expect the business to proceed this night, and that gentlemen should take till to-morrow to consider what would be the most effectual mode of proceeding Afterwards. He agreed entirely with the hon. gent. opposite, that it was far better to proceed openly, under the sanction of ail act of parliament, than in a clandestine manner, and by an artificial transfer of the office. But he submitted, that, in place of a deputy to be named by the auditor himself, the preferable mode of proceeding would be that parliament should, nominatim, appoint a legal trustee to act for the noble lord, who, of course, would be responsible for the faithful discharge of his office.

Mr. Fox

said, that, for his own part, he could see no objection, at this moment, to the arrangement proposed by the hon. and learned gent. He was aware that it was not orderly in him to say that he wished to consult another person out of the house on what passed in that house. He trusted, however, to be excused for expressing a desire to submit the suggestion of the learned gent. to his noble friend before he entirely acquiesced in it. He at the same time submitted, as it would be completely competent to alter the bill in the committee, agreeably to the suggestion of the learned gent., if his idea should be afar proved of, that, to save time, the bill should be read a first and second time that night.

Mr. Rose

declared, that his objections would he done away by the appointment of a trustee under responsibility.—The question was then put, and leave given to bring in the bill; Mr. Fox and Mr. Williams Wynne being ordered to prepare it. Mr. Fox then brought it up, and it was read a first and second time, and ordered to be committed to-morrow.