On the motion being put for the house resolving itself into a committee of the whole house, on the Militia Enlisting bill,
§ General Fitzpatricksaid, it was his intention to propose in the committee a clause for limiting the time of the enlistment of these volunteers. It was now 14 years since he first endeavoured to impress the propriety of enlisting for the army for a term of years. The enlistment for life, however, still continued, though he was convinced his proposition would be ultimately adopted, as the only certain mode of permanently recruiting the army. His plan was partially adopted in the volunteering from the militia in 1799, in which case the enlistment was for a definite term of 5 years, and during the war. There was no provision to that effect in the present bill, and that was his principal reason for voting against it on the second reading. He would propose in the committee 135 a limitation similar to that of 1799, with the exception of that part of it which restricted the service to Europe. The limitation he meant to propose was, merely for the term of 5 years, without any limitation of place.
§ Mr. Ellisonsaid, the bill was neither unconstitutional nor unjust: and if it was the motto of the constitution neither to bend or bow, yet as the militia was but one branch of the great tree of the constitution, the militia might be constitutionally made both to bow and bend, to receive alterations, not only without violating the constitution, but so as at once to maintain it, to guard it from the incroachment of real violations, and by extending the sphere of its conservative power, to keep off the blights of time from the sacred body of the constitution. He would not admit that the bill would be a tax on the landed interest. The militia was originally, however, more a taxation on the landed interest than on any other. It was a wrong idea to suppose that the militia was raised for its own defence merely; for what would be our situation, if. on the call of danger, the York or Lincoln militia were to refuse to serve any where but in its own county? For these reasons, he thought the bill neither unconstitutional, unjust, nor oppressive. As to what was said of its being a breach of faith, it was not that, but a commutation. Still he admitted that nothing could justify the measure but the necessity of the case. With respect to men's feelings, he could only say, that he neither felt himself insulted or degraded by the bill, and should say to his men, at the head of his regiment, "Here, my lads, is a better way of serving your country, and I know you will choose the better way." He took notice of the remarks on the paper signed by the 32 militia officers, mentioned on a former night, and said, that although he was present at the meeting of these officers, he had never understood that any resolution was passed, and had never signed his name to any, although it did appear at the published resolutions of that meeting.
Earl Templesaid, that the hon. member was certainly present at the meeting, and expressed no sort of dissent from the resolutions.
§ Mr. Ellison ,in explanation, did not deny having been present, but as to the resolutions, there were, in fact, none proposed while he was present, or none which, from the confusion and uproar, he could 136 understand. But, most certainly, he signed no resolution or resolutions whatever, and he cautioned gentlemen how they went to meetings in future, the resolutions of which might be inserted in the public journals, with their names, without their authorities.
§ Mr. Franklandthought what might be the conduct of any gent. at a private meeting immaterial in the discussion of this bill. It was stated to be one of imperious necessity; but if so, that necessity should be proved, and then every objection, though even of a much stronger nature, would give way before it. He did not suppose that it would abate the ardour of the militia officers in the defence of their country, but some great necessity should be shewn for the adoption of a measure, by which, without that, their feelings must be wounded. Under the present circumstances he must oppose it, as impolitic and unjust, although, if otherwise, he should take pride in turning over to the regulars such men as appeared most likely to obtain most distinctions in the field of battle. He could not approve the policy of this change, which could not give us an offensive force, while the threatened danger of the country required that the men should be kept at home. He was indeed sure, that the whole force and talents of the country should be concentered for its protection, but that should always be done with a proper reference to our mild constitution. In the year 1799, there existed great political necessity, as we had then a gallant army, critically circumstanced in an enemy's country, and for the purpose of rescuing and preserving that brave army, he should not oppose any practicable method, if such could be found, of transporting not only the militia, but the whole population of the country, for its relief. This plan, therefore, did not bring an accession of 17,000 men to our offensive force, but transferred them from one branch of defensive force to another; and that in a manner calculated to produce dissatisfaction and disunion in the service. It should not be lost sight of, that in its present state, the militia was a great defensive force, created by the parliament, and so formed, as to be a check against any such improvident or ruinous enterprise, or expeditions of the ministers, if any such were meditated. To deprive the people of such a force, raised from themselves, and for their own defence, was as unjust as it was impolitic. Such varying systems, from day 137 to day welt inconsistent with stable maxims and principles of any country, and rendered it impossible to depend upon any expectations which might afterwards be conceived of them; whereas, by adhering to some steady and permanent military system, this country, considering, the spirit that now actuated it, would he enabled to keep up an army of transcendent excellence.
§ General Tarletonthought it was rather an inconsistency to call upon all the talents of the country to put the army on a proper footing, and at the same time to deny that there was any necessity for the present measure. In the third year of a war, like the present, of the most fromidable description ever known it was rather extraordinary to hear gentlemen speak as if it were a mere guerre de pots de chambre, as an illustrious character had denominated one the petty civil wars of France. The effect of having a large disposeable force would be to change the nature of the war from defensive to offensive, to free the country from the apprehension of becoming itself the scene of war, a calamity which every man who was acquainted with war and the scenes that accompanied it, would wish to remove far from any place he had an affection for. This measure, if it was disagreeable to the militia colonels, was brought upon them by themselves. If they had agreed to the interchange of the services of the militia between the different kingdoms of the empire, the services of the English militia in Ireland would have set free 20,000 regular troops, hitherto locked up in that country. The militia-men, as he had convinced himself by a very close inspection, were highly disciplined, and wanted but to be accustomed a little to the regular service, to make them as good soldiers as any in it.
§ Sir W. Elfordmade a few observations, in answer to what fell from the hon. gent. who spoke last but one. When a measure of this sort was originally proposed in 1779, the army had not gone to Holland. A second application had been made to and parliament for relief to that army, and it had been granted. The hon. gent.'s argument then, so far as it depended upon the expedition to Holland, fell to the ground. The house then divided on the speaker's leaving the chair,
138 On the re-admission of strangers into the gallery,
Ayes 113 Noes 49 Majority 64
§ Mr. Gileswas speaking on the necessity that there appeared to him to be of the bill expressing more clearly whether the Supplementary Militia bill was or was not repealed. The present measure was a partial repeal of the Additional Force act, which was itself a repeal of the act for calling out the Supplementary Militia.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, the most regular way for the hon. gent. to have proceeded, would be either to introduce any additional clauses he might think necessary, or else to move an alteration in the preamble of the bill. He however, had no hesitation in admiting, that the act of the last sessi on had put an end to the Supplementary Militia, and that his majesty had not now the power of calling them out If the whole number that were now expected to volunteer should join the regulars, such an accession, together with the ordinary recruiting would make then unnecessary. On the reading of the first clause of the bill,
Mr. Yorkefelt it necessary to repeat the observations he had thrown out on a former evening. He wished that a proportion of those who should volunteer from the militia, might be added to the royal marines, and he did not wish that any of them should be allowed to volunteer for either the foot guards or the cavalry. The principle of the bill was to increase our disposable army, and he could not consider either the cavalry or the foot guards as equally disposable with the regiments of the line. He allowed that the guards were a very fine body of men, but it had not been the custom to employ them in colonial service, like the marching regiments; besides, their number was now nearly complete. He also thought that a proportion of them would be well employed in the royal artillery. He therefore moved as an amendment to the clause, that, instead of the words "his majesty's regular forces," should be inserted the following, "the regiments of the line, royal artillery, and marines."
The Chancellor of the Exchequerdid not at all object to a proportion of the volunteers going into the royal marines, but he thought it would be better to leave a discretionary power in his majesty to settle what that proportion should be. He also agreed with the right hon. gent. respecting the cavalry, and admitted that the power of 139 sending them into that description of force should be very sparingly used; but he did not wish that it should be excluded altogether. Neither did he wish that many of them should enter the guards, although he must remark, that in all the recent wars the guards had very much distinguished themselves. They had not only fought in Flanders, Germany, and lately in Egypt; but in a former war they had been sent to North America. He therefore considered them completely as disposable troops; he then, in compliance with the suggestions of the right hon. gent. agreed, that the words "Battalions of Royal Artillery and Marine," should be added after the words "Regular Forces," in the clause. The clause as so amended was agreed to. On the clause for allowing the militia officers to select the men they wished to deep in the regiment;
Mr. Yorkecould not agree to this clause. He neither wished to make the militia inefficient by taking all their best men from them, nor did he think it right that only the worst should be sent to join the disposable force. What appeared to him a proper medium, would be to allow a certain proportion only, suppose a third or a fourth, of the flank companies and front rank men to enter into the regular service. Should more of them volunteer, he thought it would best be determined by ballot, who should be accepted; he thought it would be an extreme hardship to tell a brave soldier, who was desirous of honour, You must not volunteer or get the bounty, because you are a good soldier and a credit to the regiment, but such a man may volunteer, because he has been inattentive to his military duties, and is rather a disgrace to the regiment. For these reasons he could not agree to the clause as it stood.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid he had introduced this clause for tile purpose of meeting, as far as possible, the sentiments of the militia officers, and was convinced, that in whatever mode a considerable number of the militia could be brought to volunteer, they would still be a most valuable accession, to the regular army. He wished to give a discretionary power to the militia officers to make the selection as they thought proper, he did not wish them to part only with their worst men. He concluded by moving as an amendment, that after the word "chase," should be added thes words, "by ballot or other- 140 wise." Sir James Pulteney, Lord Temple, General Norton, and Colonel Stanley, were for giving the militia officers the power of selecting. General Tarleton thought it of much more consequence that the best men should be sent to the disposable force, than that they should stay in the militia regiments. The Chancellor of the Exchequer expected that when the legislature had once pronounced their opinion on the subject there would be an honourable emulation among the militia officers, to send good and efficient soldiers to the regular army. This clause was then agreed to, as was another, which provided that if a sufficient number did not volunteer out of the half set apart by the militia officer, the deficiency should be made good out of the remaining part of the regiment.—On the clause which mentioned general service for life;
§ General Fitzpatrickrose, and moved as an amendment, that the term should be for 5 years, or until 6 months after a definitive treaty of peace. He grounded his argument, not only on general reasons, but on the conduct of government to the militia in a similar case, in the year 1799.—This motion produced a very long and desultory conversation, in which lord Temple, Sir James Pulteney, general Norton, colonel Stanley, general Tarleton, and sir W. W. Wynne, took a share.
§ Mr. Foxsaid that he was a friend to the clause that provided for the service being limited, instead of being for life, because it was founded on principles of justice, and agreeable to the spirit of the constitution of this country, and not repugnant to any military principle whatever; and when he should have an opportunity of giving a vote upon such a question, he should never give it for enlisting men for life; yet he wished his right hon. friend on this occasion not to take the sense of the house, because as this was a limited and partial question, many might be against this particular clause under all the circumstances of the case, who might approve of the principle, and adopt it on another, and what might appear to them a more fit occasion; and he did wish that the majority against such a principle should be greater in appearance than reality. He hoped his right hon. friend, than whom nobody was more capable, would take some opportunity of bringing this subject before parliament, and he hoped that as it was a point on which military opinions were divided, as he now 141 heard, the question would be fully considered by parliament, since we were almost, if not altogether, the only power in Europe which supported its military establishment by enlisting men fir life, and we were the very last that ought to adopt such a system, because it was wholly repugnant to the true principles of the constitution of this country, on which its glory and consequently its real interest was founded.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerobserved on the general question which had been just alluded to: and remarked that the opinions of military men were much divided on the subject of enlisting soldiers for a term of years, instead of for life. Many military characters of the first estimation thought it would be attended with consequences highly injurious to the service. They also thought it impracticable during war. He did not now argue the point, but merely mentioned it, as a matter of great and serious difficulty at any time, and so doubtful in policy, that he should feel himself under the necessity of opposing such a measure whenever brought forward. No analogy could be drawn from the practice of foreign countries; none of them were under circumstances similar to this.
§ Mr. Foxsaid, that as to its being a measure which could not be adopted in time of war, nothing was more easy than to include in it a provision that none of the men should be discharged during war; and indeed this very thing was done in one of the bills brought in last war by the right hon. gent. himself; but that was of little importance, for the right hon. gent. had no respect for his own bills.
§ General Fitzpatrickobserved, that in the clause he had offered, he copied the very words to be found in one of the bills of the chancellor of the exchequer last war; but, however, he should follow the advice of his hon. friend, and withdraw the clause.
Earl Templeproposed a clause, subjecting every person, who shall unfairly enlist any man out of the militia, to a penalty of 20l. or in default of payment, to imprisonment, not exceeding three months, nor less than six weeks.
The Chancellor of the Exchequeropposed it on the ground that it might give birth to hardships upon serjeants, and other recruiting officers, for having offered money to a man in a public house, &c. which 142 would be injurious to the service, and no advantage to the public. Government would take care, that as few abuses as possible should take place in the practice of enlisting.
§ Mr. Ellisonthought there ought to be some security against the recruiting serjeants tampering with men.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, the best security against that was, that both the labour and the money would be lost, if any thing of that nature took place, because unless he was fairly enlisted, he could never be attested.
Sir. W. W. Wynnesaid, that without such a clause as this in the act of parliament, there could be no security whatever against mal-practices in this respect. They could not depend on the orders of the executive government in such cases.—The militia ought to be protected against that most dangerous animal, a recruiting serjeant.
§ Mr. Bankesexpressed an intention to offer a material amendment in the bill in another, stage.—The committee went through the bill, and the house being resumed, the report was received immediately, and was ordered to be taken into further consideration to-morrow, and the bill with the amendments, was ordered to be printed.—Adjourned.