§ On the order of the day for the third reading of this bill, counsel was called in on behalf of the petitioners against the bill. Mr. Plomer appeared as counsel for the petitioners against it, from the islands of Jersey, Guernsey, Alderney, and the Isle of Man; and represented their use at considerable length. He went into the various charters, and tenures, by which the islands of Jersey and Guernsey were held by the crown of England, and maintained, that the parliament of England were not entitled to legislate internally for those islands, which had always internal regulations of their own. He dwelt very particularly on the rights of the island of Guernsey; and maintained, that this island having, as well as Jersey, been under the dominion of the dukes of Normandy, before the conquest of England, by William I. and being the only part of the original possessions of that conqueror, now under the British crown, they had as good, if not a better right, originally to legislate for Great Britain then, than Great Britain had to legislate for them. He then stated the length of time in which those islands had been in possession of this commerce, without which, they would, in fact, have no trade at all, and be deprived of their subsistence. Neither would it be ultimately beneficial to the revenue; for, thought the provisions of the bill would rain those islands for ever, yet the eventual effect would be, that, at the return 630 of peace, the same trade would inevitably be transferred to the opposite coast of France.—After the counsel had withdrawn;
§ The Chancellor of the Exchequer rose, and said, that he had listened very attentively to the speech of the learned counsel, and as many of the points urged by him wore an air of argument and novelty that might appear to deserve some consideration, he should have no objection, if it was desirable to members, to postpone further proceedings on the bill till to-morrow. At the same time, he considered, that the right of a British parliament to legislate for those islands, was established by long usage, and precedents in number, beyond all possibility of doubt. He therefore moved, that the third reading of the bill be postponed till to-morrow.
§ Mr. Windham rose, he said, with his mind strongly impressed by the very forcible arguments which he had just heard from the learned counsel at the bar, many of which, even in a constitutional view, required very serious consideration, and, on the ground of policy, suggested the necessity of proceeding with cautious deliberation, before a law was adopted creating crimes subject to very severe punishments, and suddenly operating too upon a people to whom it would be totally new, and to whom, without some more reasonable warning, it would, no doubt, be productive of many serious and vexatious embarrassments in the way of their trade. Revenue was certainly a good thing for a minister to look to; and smuggling was a very great evil, which required the greatest vigilance and exertion for its prevention:but in this case there were other considerations also to be looked to; and first, whether this bill could be fairly considered as a constitutional infringement upon the alleged independence of those islands inhabited certainly by a people of a very ardent spirit, and who had long manifested their loyalty and attachment this realm, and to whom, perhaps, at this particular crisis, it might not be altogether wise to give any feasible cause of irritation, by the passing a law which could not fail to operate vexatiously, if it was to have any very speedy effect, and the motives for which, the people on whom it would operate, had not fully or fairly before them: and, secondly, whether in grasping at money, we might not risk the loss of the islands. He was not going to question at this moment the right of the country to legislate for those islands, the right of the strong over 631 the weak. It was to the prudence of the proceeding at this particular crisis that his doubts were directed. He took shame to himself, that he had not attended to the previous progress of the bill, but he thought the objections to it were in no inconsiderable degree increased, by the proposed law being brought in as a clause in another bill, instead of being, as it ought, a distinct measure, and being brought forward at so late a period in the session. He was glad, however, the, right hon. gent had agreed to postpone proceeding, but thought it should be to a more distant day.
§ The Chancellor of the Exchequer answered, that with respect to the right of a British parliament to legislate for those islands, no doubt whatever could exist, as the right had been established time immemorial by usage and precedent. He did not feel it necessary to go quite so far back, as the learned counsel in tracing the question. But it would be found, on recurring to the rolls of parliament, in the reign of Edward the IIId and to the statutes of queen Anne, that the British parliament had passed laws imposing duties on, and otherwise legislating internally for those islands. That the act of habeas corpus, in the reign of Charles II. extended its operations to those islands by name, in the same manner as in this country, and that an act of the 2d of George II. imposed a sixpenny duty on ships in their ports, for the support of Greenwich hospital, to be collected by officers within their islands; and here again was internal legislation. The act of settlement also annexed those islands to the British dominions, and required that all civil and military officers within those islands, should take the oaths of allegiance to the British crown; therefore the question of legislative right was put beyond all doubt. He was aware of the hon. gent.'s observation, as to the ardent spirit of the inhabitants of those islands; that one was more jealous than the other of its aristocratical dignity, on the ground of high descent, and that the other might feel jealousy on the score of what they called the rights of fair trade;—very different construction, however, from that species of commerce, from what it usually bore in this country. However, it would not be denied, that revenue was a matter of most material consideration to this country in the midst of a war; and when it was remembered, that the loss of revenue occasioned to the country by the smuggling trade, carried on through the medium of those islands, was 632 not trivial, but enormous, he trusted the house would feel the necessity of adopting effectual checks for reducing the commerce of those islands to the same controul with all the other branches of his majesty's dominions. That the measure had not been discussed sooner was not his fault: it was introduced early in the session, and printed above a month; there was a petition against it before the house for a considerable time, and the parties were at liberty to come forward by their counsel, if they had so thought fit, in any former stage of the bill, without waiting to the very last stage.
§ Mr. Grey coincided in the objections of his right hon. friend (Mr. Windham) and said, there was one point urged by the counsel, which struck him as a circumstance for very mature consideration; namely, that of bringing persons from withinthe jurisdiction of their own laws and government for crimes created by this bill, and trying them before a British court and jury. He would admit that smuggling was there carried on to a most mischievous extent. He lived on a part of the coast where he had opportunities of knowing the fact; but he thought it would be wise to try if the evil could not be checked by other means, without resorting to a measure of this nature. Were. it in time of peace, the only effect would most probably be to transfer the trade now carried on at those islands to the French coast; but in a period of war, and when these islands were to this country so valuable as a commercial medium, no risks should, be run of a loss infinitely greater than any benefit to be derived through the operation of this bill. Mr. Fellowes allowed it was a strong bill; but it was admitted by all who best knew the extent of the evil, that nothing but a strong measure could check it.
§ Mr. Sturges Bourne thought it rather a strange argument to offer to a British parliament, that the independence of those islands was less injured by being governed under the more arbitrary principle of edicts from the king in council, than under the constitutional protection of a British parliament. With respect to the observation of the hon. member who spoke last but one, namely, the bringing persons out of the jurisdiction of Guernsey and Jersey to be tried in England for crimes committed within that jurisdiction, it was by no means intended by this bill; and if the clause was thought to be worded so as to convey that meaning, it would certainly be modified, for it was meant that all crimes committed within those 633 jurisdictions should be also tried there.—The further proceeding on the bill was deferred till to-morrow.—Adjourned.