§ — Sir A.S. Hamond trusted that he should be indulged in moving, without a notice, for a paper which he thought necessary to have on the table, with a view to the discussion to-morrow. Amongst the papers ordered on the motion of the hon. admiral opposite (Markham) was a letter from the Lords Commissioners of the Admiralty to the Navy Board, dated the 19th October, 1802, inclosing a copy of their Lordships minutes of the 16th of the same month. if this letter was to be laid before the house, he thought the answer to it ought also to be produced. He therefore begged. 707 leave to move "that there he laid before the house a Copy of the Letter from the Navy Board to the Secretary of the Admiralty, dated Nov. 15th, 1802, in answer to the above letter."
§ Admiral Markham rose, not, he said, to oppose the production of the paper now moved for, as he had no objection to the production of any paper whatsoever that might give the house any necessary information on this subject, but to express some degree of surprise at the circumstance of moving for a paper, declared to be of some importance, on the very evening previous to the discussion of an important subject to which it related, and when it would be impossible to have that paper in the hands of members in time preparatory to that discussion. There were many papers for which he had moved, and which were nor yet printed. There were many others which he also might think important, and might be desirous of moving for; but his only reason for not so moving was a wish not to impede any longer the proposed discussion.
§ Sir A. S. Hamond wished only that the answer should be in possession of the house as well as the letter. No delay had arisen on the part of the navy board respecting the production of the papers that had been ordered by the house, every clerk having been employed in preparing them.
§ Mr. Kinnaird rose to express his extreme reluctance, that a discussion of so much magnitude and importance should be pressed forward on to-morrow, when now, upon the very eve of that discussion, it was declared by hon. gentlemen on both sides of the house, and both highly interested in that discussion, that there were yet many papers of importance to the question, and which were absolutely necessary to inform the house, not yet laid before it, and which it would now be impossible to bring forward. To the hon. member who proposed to bring forward the subject to-morrow, no blame could attach; nor could any man say, that he had not given the house ample time to prepare; but if he was now in his place, he (Mr. Kinnaird) should not hesitate to put the matter to his own liberality, whether it would he fair or candid, even after all the delay to which he had acceded, to press the house to a decision, and at this period of the session, for which it now appeared it could not he duly prepared. He should hope, that if the hon. member was now in his place, he would have no objection to the still f[...]rther postponement of his motion.
§ The chancellor of the Exchequer had no 708 hesitation in saying that he entirely agreed with the hon. gent. opposite; that, in the present state of the session, and under the present circumstances, whilst so many essential documents were yet to be laid before the house, they should not be called on to decide on so important a subject. So sensible was he of the necessity of some further delay, in order to enable the house to come fully prepared to the discussion of this subject, that he was ready to join any hon. gent. in using every means to persuade the hon. member to defer his motion to the next session of parliament.
§ Mr. Jeffery rose, and said, he felt it extremely hard upon him, after the repeated delays to which he had acceded, week after week; after the pains he had taken to prepare himself on this subject, that he should now be called upon to postpone it to a future session of parliament. He had only to say, that, from the documents he had moved, he was prepared to substantiate his charges against the noble earl; and that, although delay was now proposed for the want of other documents not yet laid before the house, he could truly assert that the papers which had been moved for by the hon. admiral had no more relevancy to the subject than to any other subject, however extraneous. He begged, however, to remind the house, that he was prepared to substantiate his charges against the noble lord, to the full satisfaction of the house, and to prove that to which he had already pledged himself; namely, that lord St. Vincent was the worst enemy this country ever had. (A loud cry of order! order!) He would repeat the assertion, and he was ready to substantiate the fact; and however severe upon himself, or hurtful to his feelings, to be called on, after so many delays, and so much pains as he had taken to prepare himself for the task he had undertaken, to postpone the business to another session, yet, if it was the sense of the house that he should do so, he would submit; at the same time, however, solemnly pledging himself not to recede from his object one inch, and that no man or body of men should, by any endeavours to procrastinate, prevent him from bringing it forward immediately after the opening of the next session of parliament.
§ Admiral Markham said, that, as to the hon. gentleman's assertions in relation to the noble earl, they were not worthy of an answer, nor would he condescend to notice them by giving one. But with respect to the necessity of members having an opportunity of perusing the papers laid before the 709 house for their information upon so important a question, that he believed would be admitted, as he saw a large bundle of those papers now in the hands of an hon. member, which he should have thought it necessary to move should be printed, but that he saw it would have been impossible to print them in time for the discussion proposed for to-morrow, and which it was by no means his intention to express any wish for postponing. But how the hon. gent. could venture to assert that those papers, for which he (admiral Markham) had moved, would have no relevancy to the subject, he was really at a loss to conceive. How did the hon. gent. contrive to pick up his knowledge of this fact? Was he privy to the correspondence of the admiralty board, or how could he know any thing of the substance of that correspondence? Was it in his country residence he received this intelligence? or had he any private access to the books of the admiralty, that he could assume to know so well what was or what was not relevant to this subject in the contents of those books? He had a right to have some knowledge on this subject from his situation; he conceived the papers he moved for necessary and relevant to the purpose, and his assertion was at least as good authority as that of the hon. gent. He merely wished to ask the hon. gent. whether he meant to bring forward his motion tomorrow, or to put it off? Because, if the latter, he had a great number of papers to move for, which he conceived highly essential upon a question of so much magnitude, because, giving the hon. gent. credit for all the goodness of intention he professed on the enquiry, he wished to extend his object by rendering the information of the house as complete as possible on the subject.
§ Sir A. S. Hamond, as the letter of the Admiralty had been ordered, thought the answer ought also to be laid before the house. He thought, too, that the hon. admiral should move for any papers he might think necessary this session.
§ Mr. Jeffery begged to be indulged in a word or two in answer to the hon. admiral's question, as to the source of his information. It was not derived from any clandestine privity, or improper access to the books of the Admiralty, but from the drawer in the table of that house, where those papers, moved far by the hon. admiral, had lain ten whole days before he presumed to move for their being printed.
§ Mr. Tierney observed, that the assertions made by the hon. member who spoke last, would go forth to the injury of earl St. Vin- 710 cent's character, without the opportunity of that complete refutation which he had the fullest confidence they would receive, upon a fair discussion of the subject. He therefore regretted exceedingly that the discussion should be postponed; at the same time, however, it could not be denied that the house was entitled to the full possession of every necessary information or document which could be obtained upon a question of so much magnitude, and that every paper necessary to the knowledge of either side of the house, should he laid before them preparatory to a full and fair investigation. in order to this, it was extremely desirable, and it was but fair to ask, that the hon. gent. would state shortly the several heads of his charges against the noble earl, in order that his friends might know to what points the defence was to he directed, and what further documents it might be necessary to move for. He had not himself asked for the smallest delay; but now that the motion was deferred, he might say, that, if the discussion had been brought forward under the present circumstances on an ex parte statement, it would have been a most gross and unwarrantable proceeding. The right hon. the chancellor of the exchequer deserved great credit for the part he had taken on the occasion, which alone had weight, as the merits of the case had no share in inducing the hon. gent. to put off the business.
§ Mr. Jeffery wished to know to what length he was required to state the subject of those charges. If the house thought him at liberty, he had no objection to state, that he charged earl St, Vincent, that from his appointment to the office of first lord of the Admiralty, in 1801, until his departure from that situation, that he neither kept the ships of his majesty's navy committed to his charge in. proper repair, nor did he do more than such a proportion as one is to eight, of the repairs. actually required to place the navy in a proper state: that he did not lay down ships to be built in his majesty's dock yards for the necessary strength of the navy, but precluded himself from so doing by a sudden and rash discharge of the artificers employed in those yards: that he did not procure the necessary supply of timber for the building, or repair of ships, but defeated that supply in the principal source whence it could have been obtained: that he took no steps to procure the building or repair of ships, in any thing like the proportion lie should have done, with a prospect of war: that—
§ Mr. Kinnaird rose to order. He thought it not regular upon a notice of motion to 711 send these things forward to the public, which could not at that time be submitted to a regular discussion.
§ The Speaker interposed, and said, the hon. member was called on to state the heads of the charges it was his intention to bring forward, and it was perfectly in order for him to proceed.
§ Mr. Jeffery, continued, and charged, that within one month of. the renewal of hostilities with France, the noble lord employed his whole force in laying up the fleets in ordinary. He did mean to charge, that in no one way did earl St. Vincent keep the ships under his charge in the repair that he ought; in no one way did he endeavour, either in the king's yards or the merchant's yards, to procure the building of ships necessary to keep the navy in a proper state; and these facts he would prove to the satisfaction of the house, and in contradiction to any man who would dare to assert the contrary.
§ Mr. Wilberforce wished the hon. gent. to state to the house the nature and object of his motion, in a clear and comprehensive way, that the house might he fully aware of the subject it had to discuss, and members might be fully prepared, in the course of the vacation, to meet the question with competence, when it should be brought forward.
§ Sir W. Elford said, his hon. friend had fully stated the heads of his several charges, but it was hardly fair to call him to stare precisely the motion be intended to ground upon those charges. Here the conversation ended. Sir A. S. Hamond's motion was agreed to, and the motion of Mr. Jeffery was understood to be put off till next session.