§ Mr. Greyrose to inquire whether anymore papers were to be laid before the house, in addition to the two sets which had already been delivered? There still appeared to him to be a very great deficiency in those popers, and he wished to know whether this deficiency was likely to be supplied by the production of any additional papers?
The Chanc. of the Excheq.replied, that there were some more papers to be delivered, and that he expected them every minute. The hon. gent. would then be better able to judge, whether there still remained any deficiency or not.
§ Mr. Grey,after all the information which the papers already moved for contained, still expressed himself of opinion that there were several important deficiencies to be supplied, and points of the highest consequence to be explained. The deficiencies at present existing, were of papers from the office of the sec, for the foreign department, and the board of admiralty. Of the latter he should, at present, say nothing, because all the papers he had moved for were not yet produced, and till they were on the table, he could not ascertain to what extent the deficiency of evidence existed. As to the deficiencies from 225 the sec. of state's office, he had to offer a few observations. What, in the first place, he wished to ascertain, was, whether, previous to the 2d June, down to the 24th Nov. there existed any papers illustrative of the steps taken by our ministers to obtain any satisfactory explanation of the treaty of St. Ildefonso. He was also anxious to know whether, during the long interval betwixt the 21st Jan. and the 29th Nov. no instructions whatever were given by Lord Hawkesbury, or the person who succeeded him in the office of foreign sec. to our minister at Madrid, on the subjects in dispute betwixt the two countries. If no such instructions were given, it was fit that this should be stated to the house. If, on the other hand, instructions were given, it was proper that the house should be in possession of them to enable them to form a fair judgment of the whole of this very extraordinary negotiation. On a former day he had moved for a copy of all information received of the passage of French troops through the Spanish territories, referred to in Mr. Frere's dispatch of the 9th Sept. It was quite clear, that in consequence of the remonstrances of our minister, the future passage of French troops through Spain was prevented; but while this was admitted, it was equally evident that some explanations took place on the subject. Now, it was very important for the house to know what these explanations Were; but the house had hitherto no information on the subject. The existence of these explanations was indeed sufficiently evident, from references in the dispatches of the 24th Nov. but the house knew not in what spirit they were couched, or to what extent they proceeded. Respecting the convention alluded to in the correspondence, he was now convinced that what the right hon. gent. opposite (Mr. Pitt) had stated, was correct; that such an agreement between the govt. of Spain and this country had no existence. But it was quite as manifest that the Spanish govt. did, in consequence of what had taken place in various conferences with our minister, suppose that their neutrality was to depend on certain understood conditions. In various parts of the correspondence it appeared that ministers had made various demands for a copy of the treaty by which Spain was to furnish subsidiary resources to France. He wished to be informed whether ministers were ever in possession of an official Copy of this document. The knowledge of 226 this fact was highly interesting, because it would be possible to form an estimate, whether the terms of it differed widely from those terms on which, in the, first instance, our forbearance was founded; whether it was materially contrary to the principles on which there was a chance of the preservation of Spanish neutrality; or whether Spain, at the time the rupture took place, had shewn any disposition to alter her conduct in any way likely to affect the interests of this country? It was not attempted to be denied, in the papers already on the table, that very important conferences had taken place betwixt the Spanish ambassador here, and the sec. for the foreign department. The chev. d'Anduaga alluded to the conferences in various parts of his dispatches. It was fair to presume, not only that these conferences were highly interesting, but it was not at all unlikely that the principal part of the discussion that took place was committed to writing. The Spanish ambassador spoke in his dispatches of explanations Which these conferences produced, and it would surely be very strange indeed, if the sec. for the foreign department never communicated any part of the discussions to our minister at Madrid, as affording him a rule for the regulation of his conduct in the course of the various discussions which took place on all the points in dispute. From the Chev. d'Anduaga's dispatches of the 3d Aug. it was quite undeniable that the conferences of the 29th and 30th Aug. involved matters of the highest consequence. In the whole of that dispatch, it was plain that his excl. viewed them in that light, and it was not less obvious, that in a similar light he had represented them to his court. If he attached so much consequence to them, was it presuming too much to suppose that they must have been at least equally interesting to our minister at Madrid? It was next to an impossibility that he should have been left altogether ignorant of their principal importance; but not a word of what had taken place betwixt Lord Hawkesbury, his successor, and the Spanish ambassador, appeared in the papers already on the table. The house, however, ought not to be kept in the dark, respecting any part of so interesting a business; and he certainly did think, that if any documents connected with these conferences were in existence, they ought to be produced. He should therefore feel it his duty to move for the production of all 227 the notes which might have been presented at these different conferences to which the Spanish ambassador refers in various parts of his dispatches, and on which he appears to lay peculiar stress, as if in these the terms of the Spanish neutrality had been in a great measure adjusted. He next wished to call the attention of the house to the two notes of the Spanish minister on the 4th and the 11th of Nov. in which he gives an official explanation of the state of the Spanish armaments. It was important for the house then to know what was the information on which ministers proceeded when the orders for the detention of the Spanish frigates were issued. It was material to compare the intelligence received from our naval officers abroad, with the solemn assurances and explanations given by the Spanish ambassador resident at our court. Till this information was before the house, it was impossible to determine how far these orders were or were not called for by the actual state of things. If ministers had any such information, the house had a right to demand it. If ministers had no such information, it was not at all very doubtful what opinion ought to be entertained of them for issuing the orders. The hon. member also expressed a desire to have all letters or dispatches which took place from February to May 1804, produced. It was fair to presume that letters of an important kind were written during that interval. In the letter of the 1st of May, a letter of the 18th of Feb. is referred to, and he wished to have that letter produced, as affording some explanation of the manner in which any expectation of the continuance of Spanish neutrality could be preserved. He had thought it his duty to throw out these observations, not with the view of embarrassing govt. but solely with the object of coming, with full information, to the discussion of a subject which he could not help considering one of the most momentous which ever was submitted to the decision of the house of commons. As to deficiencies from the board of admiralty, he should at present say nothing, till he had an opportunity of seeing whether the papers he had moved for were satisfactorily produced.
The Chanc. of the Excheq.said, the papers he expected to present this day would afford as good answers as could be given to the inquiries of the hon. gent. There were 228 two official letters from M. Anduaga. There were no others that could well be produced; for he did not conceive that mere memorandums, not delivered officially, or by command of the govt. or the ambassador, could be made objects of any serious proceeding. He would not now enter into any argument on the subject, which the hon. gent, professed to avoid, though he, at the same time, took occasion to insinuate an opinion upon it. The papers which were about to be presented to the house would be accompanied by a schedule, which directed how to apply them to the points. These contained all the information govt. could give. As to the written accounts of conferences, there were none, unless mere memorandums, which were not of a shape to be produced or relied upon. With respect to the convention of St. Ildefonso, all his maj.'s govt. knew about it was in the papers before the house. They knew it existed, and had some conjectures as to its provisions; but they had no official or authentic information upon it, such as could be made the subject of a communication.
§ Mr. Foxstrongly contended for the importance of having such explanations as look place at different conferences alluded to in the dispatches laid before the house. The explanations contained in the conferences of the 9th and the 30th of March, must, from the language of the letter of the 1st of May, have been highly interesting, and ought, by all means, to be produced. The chanc. of the excheq. had indeed stated, that mere notes, presented by an ambassador, perhaps merely offering a private opinion, and not authorized by his court, could not afford any information to the house. He, for his part, begged leave to argue that this was not a fair view of the subject. It was not possibe to conceive from the language of the Spanish ambassador, when alluding to explanations which had taken place at conferences, that he delivered in unauthorized notes. It was, on the contrary, quite evident that he alluded to authorized explanations, in which he laid down the principles and views of his court. It was impossible to believe that the notes which passed on such occasion were uninteresting. The presumption was certainly directly the reverse, and the house ought to have an opportunity of exercising their judgment on the subject. He was therefore anxious for the production, of all such explanations as would tend to 229 throw light on this most interesting subject. There was in the perusal of the papers a circumstance which puzzled him considerably, and which required a good deal of explanation. Our minister, Mr. Frere, in a letter of the 12th of Nov. stated, that in consequence of some discussions with the prince of peace, he should demand a conference. Now it was a matter of some consequence to ascertain whether ever this conference took place, and if it did take place, what was the result of it, or what explanation it produced. It was hardly to be supposed that it should not have been demanded after Mr. Frere, in a letter to the sec. for the foreign department, had expressed an opinion of its expediency. But the house had not a tittle of information on the subject. He wished to have this deficiency, with those pointed out by his hon. friend, fully supplied, previous to entering on the general question.
§ Mr. Greyargued, that the notes given in by the Spanish ambassador at the conferences alluded to, were, if not official, at most, important documents. They were representations of the principles and policy of the Spanish govt. and in that light were highly requisite to guide the judgment of the house. That they were merely minutes and not signed in the usual diplomatic, style was a matter of no consideration. Their spirit was not on account of their form at all affected. He should therefore, to-morrow, move for copies of the notes delivered, and of explanations which took place at those conferences to which the Spanish ambassador in his letters alluded. Here the discussion terminated, and shortly after,
The Chanc. of the Excheq.presented to the house some further papers relative to the war with Spain; which were ordered to lie on the table, and to be printed. The following are correct copies of the said papers: