§ On the motion of the Secretary at War the house went into a committee of supply, to which were referred the several estimates relative to the army.
The Secretary at Warsaid, it became his duty to call the attention of the house to 248 the different parts of the military establishment of the empire. He was satisfied to, think, that he should not detain the house long. Following the example of those who preceded him in his office, some of whom he was proud to imitate, he should content himself with noticing those in which a variation had taken place in the charge. The principle increase of the charge had occurred in consequence of the addition of 29 rank and file per company. Since the estimate had been formed, however, a reformation had taken place, by which the total' expence had been diminished, by the adoption of a plan for not voting the whole addition for the cavalry, but only eleven men per troop; considering the effective of the cavalry at present and the current amount of the recruits raised, no material alteration would be made in that respect. The next description of force in which a material alteration had taken place was that which was raised in virtue of an act made 2 years ago, the Army of Reserve Act. By this act, 50,000 men were to be raised in the empire, 32,000 of which in England. A division into 16 districts had taken place with this view, each of which was to raise 2000 men. As it was difficult that any fixed standard could prevail among the various modes of recruiting by which this act was carried into execution, it was thought proper to form 16' garrison battalions, into which those who were under a certain size, or a certain age, or otherwise unfit for immediate service, had been incorporated. Those who were under age, who were the principal part of this force, having grown, had volunteered into the line, and by other changes, the whole amount of men in these battalions had been reduced to 1,500 men. It was, therefore, proposed to reduce them to 3 battalions, instead of 16, by which a saving would be made in the charges for officers of 204,288l. There was some alteration in the charges for forces in India, but the expence of these was borne by the company. In the item of general and staff officers, an increase of 73,000l. had been made. This was principally in consequence of the system of brigading the volunteers, and annexing to the. brigades field officers, whose utility in improving their discipline had been fully demonstrated. A considerable reduction had been made in the embodied militia, which it was proposed to vote on the old system of 40,000 men for England, and 18,000 for Ireland, the charge for which would be 3,176,000l. instead of 2,663,000l. In the 249 charge of officers, an increase of 24,739l. had been made in consequence of an additional expence in the commissary general's office; and an increase of 8,000l. in the department of the horse guards. There was an increase in the charge for foreign corps, which arose from the augmentation in the German legion, now to contain 10,000 men, instead of 5,000. In the barrack department the expence was a million less than it had been last year. It was still great, because, in consequence of the menaced invasion, it was necessary always to keep a considerable number of men on the coast; a great part of these could not be lodged without barracks, which were now prepared for 8000 men. The right boa. gent, then proceeded to move the estimates, according to the following abstract, for G. Brit, and Ireland:
NUMBERS £. s. d. Guards, Garrisons, &c. 143,920 4,945,920 12 8 Forces in the Plantations, &c. 46,952 1,424,920 11 7 General and staff officers, with a state of the particulars of the charge 288,858 3 2 India forces 20,145 471,461 0 11 Troops and companies for recruiting ditto 460 25,410 18 4 Recruiting and contingencies 175,866 7 8 Embodied militia and fencible infantry 163,328 2,663,751 18 2 Contingencies for ditto 65,692 6 2 Clothing for ditto 198,793 0 0 Full pay to supernumerary officers 34,469 6 8 Offices 191,838 8 10 Allowance to innkeep-kcepers, &c. 476,699 5 0 Half pay and military allowances 181,288 16 5 do. American forces 50,000 0 0 do. Scotch brigade 1,000 0 0 In-pensioners of Chelsea and Kilmainhan hospitals 53,227 19 5 Out-pensioners of ditto 196,169 11 11 Widows' pensions 29,237 19 5 Foreign corps 17,386 851,350 6 4 Hospital expences (Ireland 20,522 11 10 Royal military college (with the general staff and particulars of the senior and junior departments) 13,315 6 4 Royal military asylum 23,458 6 1 Barrack department (Ireland) 483,698 11 8 332,191 12,866,951 8 7 Deduct the India force 20,145 471,461 0 11 Total 312,046 12,395,490 7 8
§ Mr. Francissaid, that he saw by the estimates there was a charge for 20,145 troops in India. He wished to know whether these were Europeans independent of the troops of the Company. He was desirous also of knowing whether the regiments composing this aggregate number were nearly complete.
The Secetary at War,in reply, said, that the troops were independent of the Company's forces; and that as far as he could understand, the numbers of the regiments were nearly complete.
§ Mr. Franciscontended, that the number of European troops in India could not be much above 8 or 9000.
The Secretary at Wardeclared, that though he could not precisely state their number, he was sure they were far above what the hon. gent, had represented.—The motion was then put and agreed to.—Upon the resolution respecting officers of the staff,
Col. Carlcraftsaid, it was not his wish unnecessarily to delay or interrupt the committee, but he could not suffer this item "in the estimate to pass unnoticed. The charge for general officers, he said, was most enormous; and how such a number could be deemed necessary, he was utterly at a loss to account. In England there were, he observed, no less than 136 general officers; in Scotland 17; in Ireland 57; which, with one in Guernsey, and another in Jersey, made the whole number no less than 212; a thing, he said, quite unparalleled in the history of the country, in any age; and the necessity for which, it would have become the right hon. gent, to have explained in a less summary way than he had been pleased to do. With respect to the volunteer force of the country, it was said, that a great number of staff officers were necessary to attend to their discipline; but to his knowledge, those corps for some lime past had been by no means so numerous on their parades, or in the field, as heretofore; and it appeared to him, that a great many more people were employed to attend to those corps that were at all necessary.
The Secretary at Warreplied, that the hon. gent, enjoyed an opportunity on the present occasion, in combating those items in his estimates from the aid. of a printed estimate, which he would hot have had but for his good nature in acceding to the motion for that purpose on a former night; as this was almost the only instance of 251 such an estimate being brought forward to a committee in the printed form. The hon. gent. complained that the number and expence of general officers was unparalleled in the history of the country. But did he reflect also, that the occasion was unparalleled? that the necessity of keeping up an army of 600,000 men to guard against invasion, was unparalleled? or if it had not been for that volunteer force, which the hon. gent, now seemed to think of so little importance and productive of so much useless expence, the dangers which menaced the country would have burst over our heads, and we should have been involved in all that ruin so happily averted by their patriotic spirit and gallantry.
Col. Carlcraftreplied, that as long as he had a seat in that house, he should feel it his right and his duty to exact, either from the good nature of the right hon. gent, or any other who might fill his station, or from the authoritative influence of the house, the production of printed estimates; for when so enormous a portion of the public money was to be voted, he thought the house had as good right to examine printed estimates, as upon any other head of public expenditure.
§ Mr. Kinnairdcongratulated the house upon the acquisition of a secretary at war, who possessed not only so much good nature as the right hon. gent, but so much of another quality, which he should not name, as to boast of it. However, he himself concurred in opinion with the hon. member who spoke last, that a great deal of unnecessary expence was lavished in the pay of inspecting brigadiers to the volunteer corps; and these, too, were always at variance with the old field officers appointed to superintend those corps; so that it was to be apprehended, their disputes would at length break out into something extremely serious to the public service. Brigadier-.generals might have been wisely appointed in the first instance, but it would be very unwise to continue them when they could be no longer serviceable.
§ Mr. Whitbreadwas of opinion, that any increase in the staff establishment, with a view to the improvement of the volunteers in discipline, by the appointment of brigadier generals, was wholly unnecessary. From his own experience he could affirm, that no advantage whatever had been derived from such appointments; he therefore thought it imprudent to add, so 252 much to the public expenditure unnecessarily.
The Chanc. of the Exchequerstated, as the ground of this particular arrangement, that in the circumstances of the country it might have been necessary to collect a large body of troops to a particular point, and that large bodies of troops could not be marched on such service, without the assistance of brig, generals. Whilst there was such a case to be looked to, it was deemed right not to wait for their appointment till the moment when their services would be necessary, but to make the appointments some time before the occasion would be likely to arrive. As the defence of the country would ultimately depend, in a considerable degree, on the efficiency of the volunteers, he was sure the house would not feel indisposed to agree to any expenditure that was to be directed to that object. From the latest returns that had been received, it appeared, that the volunteers amounted to more than 325,000 effective men. Of that number 240,000 had been inspected, and were reported by the proper officers effective, and fit for immediate service. About 40,000 only remained yet to be in? spected. After such a representation, he was confident the house would not consider the sum of 50,000l. an object to be put in competition with the great object of improving the discipline of that very respectable branch of our defensive force.
§ Mr. Whitbreadadmitted, that the sum was not very material; but it remained for the right hon. gent. to shew that such an expenditure was necessary, or that it contributed in any degree to promote the discipline of the volunteers. In his opinion, without meaning to derogate from the character of the officers alluded to, the improved discipline of the volunteers was not at all owing to those general. Not one jot of that discipline was he disposed to attribute tp their orders or management. On the contrary, it seemed rather to proceed from the activity of the inspecting officers, who were as competent to forward those returns which were alleged as one cause for the new appointments, as any generals whatever. On the whole, he had much doubt of the propriety of such various appointments for the volunteers as major-generals, brigadier? generals, and inspecting officers. If either of these could, with all its appendages, be dispensed with, it would form a 253 saving of expence that ought immediately to be attended to. For the purpose of volunteer discipline, he repeated, that those general officers were unnecessary; and for the purpose of returns, the inspecting officers would fully answer. The original appointment of such a number of generals arose, he was aware, from a blunder committed in the very outset of the volunteer system. From this blunder, a confusion was likely to arise in case the volunteers were called into action, upon the score of rank among the volunteer officers, and also in consequence of the incapacity of those officers to direct the Operation of a body of troops. To guard against such an effect, the appointment of some regular general officers to command the volunteers, but not by any means such a number as appeared in the estimate on the table, became advisable. The ex-pence incurred by this increased number, he admitted, was small, if the purpose for which the increase took place was great; but for such purposes as those described by the right hon. gent, it was much more than ought to arise. Upon this subject lie thought that explanation more satisfactory ought to be given than the house had yet heard.
§ Col. Calcraftcompared the estimate of last year with that now under consideration, and asserted that his original statement was correct; that in the sum proposed to be voted, there was an increase beyond the vote of last year, of 134,0001. He referred to the two estimates for the proof of this difference, notwithstanding the positive assertion of the right hon. secretary at war.—The motion was agreed to.
The Secretary at Warthen moved, that the sum of 2,663,751l. should be voted for the pay, &c. of the embodied militia of G. Brit, and Ireland, for the present year.
Col. Carlcraftsaid, that although the right hon. gent. had stated, in his opening, that it was intended to reduce the militia, yet the vote proposed was for the provision of the present establishment. He wished, therefore, to know whether any reduction of the militia was intended immediately to take place?
The Chanc. of the Exchequertook this opportunity of stating, that it was in the contemplation of his maj.'s govt. to bring forward, without delay, a plan for more speedily transferring to the regular army a 254 certain proportion of the militia. The various reasons which rendered, this measure advisable, would be stated when, it should be submitted to the consideration of the house; but the right hon. gent. thought, that the known disposition of the men to enter into the regular army particularly recommended its adoption, independently of the policy which obviously suggested itself, of bringing down the militia, with all convenient expedition, to the standard at which, according to the act of last session, it was in future to he fixed.
§ Mr. Johnstoneobserved, that whether the proportion of the militia alluded to. should remain attached to that body, or be transferred to the regular army, an additional allowance it seemed would be necessary.
The Chanc. of the Exchequersaid, that in the vote for the regular army, the regiments were placed so high, that even should the proposed transfer of the militia immediately take place, their establishments would still be incomplete; therefore there would be no necessity for any additional allowance such as the hon. gent. referred to.—The motion was agreed to.—Upon the proposition for allowance to innkeepers being submitted,
§ Mr. Fullertook occasion to remark on the extraordinary expence to which the county he had the honour to represent, and the other counties on the coast, were subject, by the conveyance of troops, their baggage, &c. It had been observed, that no less than 80,000 men had been for some time back stationed on the coast. The expence of carriage, &c. in forwarding those troops, was paid by govt. but back carriage fell upon the counties. This had produced so severe a grievance, that the hon. member stated it to be the subject of general complaint. This was an evil which he trusted some means would be taken to remedy. He hoped that, in bringing forward the army extraordinaries, the right hon. the secretary at war would propose something as a reimbursement to those counties for what they had already spent, and as an indemnity for the future. The house would, he had no doubt, acknowledge the justice of such a proposition. The conveyance of troops for the national defence was a national concern, and no undue proportion of the expence attending such conveyance should be' suffered to fall upon particular counties.
The Secretary at Warsaid, that if the ion. member would confer with him in private upon the subject he alluded to, he should be happy to pay him every attention in his power, and if the proposition he recommended should be found advisable, to promote its adoption. If, how-ever, the conversation should produce in his mind a contrary impression, it would still be open to the hon. member to bring forward a motion on the subject himself.— Upon the vote for the barracks being proposed,
§ Mr. Kinnaird,adverting to the temporary barracks erected on the coast, stated, that he understood them to be very unfit for the residence of the troops. He therefore wished to know whether it was meant to continue the use of those barracks, and whether, among the provision far bar-jacks, those were included? If so, he should certainly object to them; and if no specific account of the expence of those barracks was before the house, he should move for it.
The Secretary at Warsaid, that the barracks alluded to were constructed for the accommodation of the troops, because, from circumstances, no better could be provided. It was advisable that the troops should remain on the coast during winter, and from June till Nov. there was not time sufficient for the building any other than those temporary barracks.
§ Mr. Kinnairdexpressed his sorrow for the expence incurred hi the construction of such barracks; but that expence was by no means so much the object of his consideration, as the danger likely to result to the soldiery from a residence in such places. If those barracks were not to continue any longer in use, he would not so much complain; but if the contrary was intended, he should certainly object to it.