The Chancellor of the Exchequermoved the order of the day for the third reading of the militia enlisting bill. The bill was then read a third time. The right hon. gent. brought up a clause relative to the wives and families of those militia men who should enlist.
The Marquis of Douglasasked whether it was the intention of the clause to render these wives and families still dependent on the country for support after the husbands should have enlisted? If that was the case he would oppose the clause.
§ Sir William Youngexpressed the same resolution, to object to it in case it was intended to occasion a permanent burden to the country.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that they had mistaken the clause, for its object was exactly the contrary of what they imagined, in as far as it went to take the burden of the families of Such militiamen as should enlist off the country after a time to be limited.—The clause was then agreed to; and, after a verbal amendment had been proposed and adopted, the question was put that the bill should pass.
The Marquis of Douglaswas sorry that he was again obliged to trespass on the indulgence of the house, but hoped that he would not be thought pertinacious in his opinions; when no argument had as yet been urged to justify this pernicious measure, at least nothing more than this, that the change of service would be advantageous to the country, He admitted that this was to a certain degree the case, but then the question must be considered with reference to other points, and in this view it would be found to be calculated to produce a great deal of mischief. The fact was, that the object of the bill was to supply the defects of the parish bill; that notable production, that wonderous conception which had been called a rural nymph, clad in russet gown. The gentlemen on the other side, would wish, no doubt to give her a more splendid name. They would call her Minerva, the goddess 172 of wisdom, sprung in complete armour from the brain of this political Jupiter, the whole Congress, on mount Olympus being employed as the midwives. He rather thought, however, that she was in reality no more than a plain rustic nymph, not over remarkable for dress or attractions, for she had wandered over every parish in the kingdom, and had not been able to find a friend, or companion to accompany her. He observed, that the ballot was a very unequal tax on the people; but still the militia had long been established, and the principle could not be destroyed without the most flagrant injustice. The noble lord concluded with severely condemning the ever-changing system the right hon. gent. had adopted towards the militia for many years past, and contended that the bill would go to the ruin of that constitutional branch of our defensive force. It was calculated to ruin the militia by taking the gentlemen of landed property away from it, and destroying the confidence which the men now had in their officers; it was also unjust in its operation on the public, as it occasioned an inequality of taxation on different classes of the people.
§ Mr. Sheridanrose for the purpose of entering his protest against the principle of this bill. He remained of the same opinion that he had formerly expressed. He agreed with the noble lord, that this bill would destroy the militia system, and in a manner the most unprincipled and insidious. It would lead to insubordination in the regiments, and was dangerous in a constitutional view, and unwise in a military one. One object he had in rising was, to take notice of the preamble. In that it was stated, "whereas it is important that his majesty's regular forces should be augmented." When, he asked, had this important discovery been made? Was it not known at the passing of the act of last session, when the right hon. gent. told us to count months and weeks and days and hours, till such an augmentation could be obtained? He contended, that the preamble of this bill ought to be, "Whereas an act was passed last session for augmenting his majesty's regular forces, which act had totally failed in its object, it is therefore necessary, that said act should be repealed." This he maintained was the language that ought to be employed, inasmuch as a bill that was to have produced 27,000 men had not produced a single 173 man to our infantry. This would have been telling the truth, and truth was a very good thing in an act of parliament.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerobserved that there was a small objection to such a preamble, which was that it was contrary to the fact.
§ Mr. Foxsaid, that if the right hon. gent. meant to say that the preamble proposed by his hon. friend, was contrary to the fact, because it mentioned that the bill had not procured one man, he was certainly in the right, because it had certainly produced more than one. But to say that this bill was any thing else than a repeal of the former to a certain extent, was most certainly erroneous, because if this was not the case, what was the meaning of the boasting promises which were heard when the former bill was proposed? Could the right hon. gent. not tell last year that such a bill as this would be necessary, notwithstanding his former measure? This was a curious circumstance; but the truth was, that it was then inconvenient to tell to any such thing. But he now found it out in the month of March. Was it because the recruiting of the army was at a stand? Why he had not proposed it earlier in the session, he could not tell, unless it were because he did not choose to be the first to confess that his bill had failed. The men now to be raised, could not be perfect regular soldiers for some time, after the changed their service. But the plain truth was, that the right hon. gent. had so abused the incapacity of the last ministers that he found himself absolutely obliged to propose something new; but his novelty had failed, and now came another of his temporary experiments; and however civility might prevent the expressions of triumph from being too galling, yet when the colleagues of the right hon. gent. recollected and compared the epithets with which he then honoured them, with the evidence his own measures have given in his favour, whether in convivial meeting or in political consultations, they must feel a considerable pleasure, and even a degree of exultation. His chief objection to the present bill was, that it was part of that patchwork, temporizing, and unsystematic mode which characterized all the military measures of the right hon. gent and from which experience taught us to expect nothing.
The Secretary at Warsaid, that the observations which were so confidently 174 made on the inefficacy of the additional Force bill, were wholly without foundation. The recruiting, under the sanction of that bill, Was proceeding with every prospect of advantage, and by these means, from 180 to 200 men per week were added to the service in G, Britain and Ireland. Was it to be said, that a measure productive, at the rate of 10,000 men per annum, was idle and nugatory? What was advanced with respect to the injustice of the bill now under consideration, was equally inapplicable; the intention was not to force the men from the militia regiments, but merely to receive those under a competent reward, who were anxious to join the regular establishment.
§ Mr. Foxrose to explain, that the bill could properly be denominated inefficient, because it was professedly to raise 27,000 men immediately, and it had wholly disappointed this design.
The Secretary at Waraffirmed, in reply, that, from its effects hitherto, there was every reason to conclude that it was already producing at the rate of 10,000 men annually.
§ Mr. Sheridanbegged to observe, in explanation, that he did not say that the act of last session had not produced a single man to our general force, but that it had not added a single man to the British infantry, which by the returns on the table was considerably less in number that in the last year.
§ Mr. Windhamcommented upon the curious definition of success given by the Secretary at War. The success he, however, apprehended ought to have been in proportion to the promise. If 27,000 men were promised, and only 2 or 3,000 were produced, it could not be said that this wait any great success. If a man were to, promise to walk to York in four days, and had stopped the greater part of the time at Stamford, it might be said,to him "Why don't you get on? you will not be able to perform your promise," He might answer to this, "Pray have patience a little, I am tired, and must stop for some time, but never fear, I shall make out my journey in good time to save my credit." Now, this might be very well as a promise, although certainly it would not be A very promising undertaking.—We were first told, "give it a trial, and then it, will succeed." 175 But now the matter was carried much farther, for we were told that it actually had succeeded. But it certainly could not be said with truth, with regard to the past time, and, fortunately for the right hon. gent. who made the assertion, there were no other documents for any other time. He said that 180 or 200 men were procured weekly. This might be the case at present, but a very different result might be given at the conclusion. A very small difference in the centre made a very wide one in the circumference. He denied that this was an increase to our force, and, dwelt upon the impolicy of making the militia officers discontented. He contended, that so far as the present measure would be successful, it was a repeal of the former. Why did not gentlemen call things by their proper names, and say that this was a bill for transforming militia-men into regular soldiers? Was their system so very changeable, that the recollection of their former measures passed away like visions; or did they think that they had Performed something like a military man™uvre, that they had marched away in silence without the beat of drum,and left only their tents standing, that we might not be aware that the main body had stolen away under cover of the night. They had said, however, that their former measure had not had a fair trial, and accordingly they had more time given for the accomplishing of their object. But now it seemed that it was put off ad Grœcas Calendas, in order to make, way for this new plan.
§ Mr. Canningobserved, that the right hon. gent. must forego the satisfaction which he seemed to derive from the idea of the bill being a repeal of the former. The operation of that bill was never intended to supply the vacancies that were to be filled up by the present measure. He must also forego the gratification of the confession that the former bill had failed. There was a difference between a total and partial failure. The whole failure that had taken place, and that was admitted, was, that the men had not been procured in so short a time as had been expected. The best proof that it had not failed was that it was producing at the rate. of 9000 men a year for the army. There was no inconsistency here. Because, the former measure was not calculated to produce an immediate disposable force. It was agreed on all hands that it 176 was proper to convert the indisposable into disposable force, as much as possible. He was surprised to hear the right hon. gent. say, that, to obtain the militia for the army, was not an increase of force, when he had been all along contending that the usefulness of troops did not depend on their numbers. Again, the charge of inconsistency lay with those who thought that an immediate reduction should take place, and yet opposed this measure. There might be differences as to the mode, but it was curious to hear those who wished for the reduction of the militia oppose all modes for that purpose. Some were for the gradual, and others for the immediate abolition of the slave trade; but it would be curious to hear one contend for the abolition, and yet refuse both of these methods. Considering all the objections, he was at a loss to guess to what they would come at last. They objected to different descriptions of force, and required that an exigency should be stated, and then attacked this measure as being a compromise. In a free country, every transaction of this nature necessarily partook of the form of a compromise; and upon the whole he thought that there was nothing solid in the objections to this measure.
§ Mr. Gileswas astonished at the bold assertion, that the present bill was not a repeal of the additional force bill. The latter had three objects in view: 1st, to establish a permanent force; 2d, immediately to augment that force; 3d, gradually to reduce the militia: and this threefold design appeared in the preamble of the bill, The present bill, in the third, object, by transferring 17,000 men from the militia to the regular force, so far, at least, manifestly repeals the former. Another object was comprised in the former, which was to extinguish ballots. These must be revived by the present bill; and so far again, the anterior measure was repealed. He was not at all surprised, at the contradiction between these expedients, but at least they ought to be recognized, and understood. It ought to be known, that the minister himself acknowledged, that the objections he had made with so, much animation to preceding schemes of national defence were vain and futile, and that he himself was at last constrained to tread in the steps of his predecessor. The additional force bill, by a strange inconsistency, required the parish to supply the 177 man, or pay the penalty of 201. within the period of forty-four days, when the appointment of the men so to be raised was not to be assigned until three weeks posterior.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, that gentlemen had inaccurately stated both the facts, and the conclusions from those facts; he would admit, for the sake of argument, that their facts were correct, but he could not grant the same indulgence to their deductions from them. For a moment, therefore, he would grant that the additional force bill had wholly failed: the natural deduction then was, that some other measure must be resorted to; but gentlemen used it as an argument, that to the present, and no other expedient, should the country have recourse to supply the deficiency resulting from that disappointment. Gentlemen had likewise contended—
§ Mr. Windhamhere called the right hon. gent. to order, as going beyond the line of explanation; but declared, that he had no objection to hear the right hon. gent. out in defence of this measure, if by the rules of their proceedings, he could have an opportunity of replying to him.
§ The Speakersaid, he was aware that the right hon. gent. as far as he proceeded, did not keep within the limits of explanation, and that he only waited till that circumstance should be taken notice of by the house, or till by the tenor of his speech it could be seen whether what he already said would be brought to bear upon any point of explanation.
The Chancellor of the Exchequersaid, he should leave it to the judgment of the house, whether a short observation made by him before should, in the strictness of form, be considered as speaking to the question. What he said was certainly rather in explanation of what he said in a former stage, than in elucidation of the sentence which fell from him in this; but he should not proceed further if he found it to be against the pleasure of the house.
§ The Speakeragain observed, that all which was necessary for him to do, was to state his conception of the order of proceeding, and as to the rest, it was to be disposed of at the pleasure of the house.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerthen said, that he did not wish to persist in any thing which was contrary to the forms. He was satisfied to let the question rest upon the ground on which it already stood; and he 178 was the less inclined to urge the observations he had to offer, at the present moment, as he made no doubt but the gent. opposite to him would afford him opportunities enough of doing so.—The bill was then passed without a division.—Adjourned.