HC Deb 19 March 1804 vol 1 cc930-50
Mr. Secretary Yorke

moved the order of the day for going into a further consideration of the report of the Volunteer Consolidation Bill. He said, that previous to the House going into a further consideration of this subject, he must beg their attention to a few observations he had to offer in consequence of some misrepresentations which he understood had gone abroad, but which he had not heard of till that day, relative to a clause which was supposed to have been introduced into the bill in a surreptitious manner. The words, he alluded to were "the United Kingdoms." In his first opening of the plan fur introducing this system, he very well remembered to have stated that the power of the King to call out the volunteers, was intended to be applicable to Great-Britain and Ireland. That bill was printed on the 10th of February, and the word which then was placed to convey the sense of the act, was the word "realm," which was folly intended to apply to Great-Britain and Ireland since the period of the union. When the bill was committed, he had stated that the clauses which related to the volunteers of Ireland were intended to be withdrawn, as it had been deemed more advisable to substitute a bill entirely for the purpose of regulating the volunteers of that part of the united empire, but that opinion had been rescinded. In order to do away all doubts on the subject, the words "United Kingdoms" were added, and the claws stood now exactly the same as it did then. The bill had since been twice committed, and once recommitted, without any hon. number having land the rest fault with the clause. He begged leaver to ask, whether, if any invasion was to take place on the coast of eland, it would not of advisable that his Majesty should have the power to call out the volunteers here as well as there? But not withstanding his own opinion was very decided on the point, vet, if it was thought wrong by the House, he would not on any account press it upon them. He only wished to justify himself' from any idea that he would introduce words into any clause which were different in their meaning and operation from what he had explained, or intended them to be when he first introduced the bill, and opened the nature and bearing of the measure. Having made these observations he said he should move, "that the House do now take into farther consideration the said Report."

General Tarleton

said, he should not attempt to enter, at any great length, on the present subject, nor to trespass long on the time and patience of the House; but he hoped he should be honoured with their attention to some remarks he had to offer, as, in such an awful crisis as the present, he thought it the peculiar duty of every general officer to deliver his sentiments, it might, perhaps, happen, that, in the particular situation in which he was then placed, some, obloquy might be thrown on him. He felt himself, however, superior to such cold considerations, and would prefer, what he thought the strict rule of duty, to every thing else, assuring the House that whatever danger might threaten the country, how great so ever it might be, and come when it would, he would be as ready to shed the last drop of his blood in its defence, as any man living in it. A right hon. gent. (Mr. Pitt) had said, some short time past, that we were now engaged in a war, which the youngest man in the House might not live to see the end of. Another gent, had said, the volunteers could not be roughly handled. He, for his own part, had, in a very early period of the peace, recommended it to his Majesty's ministers to keep up a very large military force. He had stated in shies place, in that House, that we were 15 millions of people, possessed, it was true, of as much spirit, courage, and enterprise as any men on the earth, but composing, generally, a commercial community: that we had been placed, by Providence, directly opposite to a nation consisting of forty-five millions, almost entirely a military people, and headed by most active and ambitious officers. He, therefore, had given it as his opinion, that our military force should be increased and placed upon a most respectable footing. To the present system he was ready to give all due credit, as calculated to repel a sudden invasion or attack; but it became the duty of ministers, when they found the enemy had laid his plan, and taken his measures on the most extensive scale, and had collected one of the largest armies in the world, to endeavour to meet him with such a force as should be most likely and best calculated to act against him on as equal terms as possible. When he was first appointed to the Severn district, he had endeavoured, as much as was in his power, to make the volunteers acquainted with all those manœuvres and different modes of turning out of their quarters, and meeting at distant places with other corps, as were most calculated to be serviceable to them in case of any sudden appearance of the enemy but he found them in such a state of insubordination that he could not send a soldier five miles to execute any order of his, because the horses of the yeomanry corps were not found by government. He by no means intended to charge this state of insubordination as a fault of his Majesty's ministers, but he could not avoid stating it as a very momentous and radical defect in the system. In consequence of this refusal to convey his letters, as lieutenant-general of the Severn district, Col. Peach's battalion of 500 fine young men actually marched thirty-five miles, in order to meet some other corps on the West Downs, because he could not get a letter conveyed by a light-horseman to apprise the colonel that the meeting was put off from the unfavourable state of the weather. At the time he thought his letter had gone, he was surprised to find it sent back to him, with information that the officer to whom he had entrusted it, could not get it forwarded. He wrote immediately to the adjutant-general, requesting him to lay the business before government, and in about ten days he received a cold phlegmatic answer, not to give himself any farther trouble in the business, for he had nothing to do with the volunteers. He thought, therefore, it was of little consequence appointing field officers as inspectors of corps, if such kind of proceedings were to be looked over, and allowed to go on.—The general then mentioned a corps, called the Selwood Forest Legion, which had actually refused to obey' the orders of the general of division, or the lord-lieutenant, or any orders but those of their own officers. He had lamented this state of insubordination, and implored them to attend to their duty, but all in vain; for they afterwards showed so mutinous a spirit, that they said they would rather fight it out on the parade, than yield precedence to any other corps, or submit to the orders of the lord-lieutenant, or general of division, and then actually formed themselves into an independent corps. He made a report of this alarming procedure to the War-Office, which was not attended to for a mouth, and then he received a letter from the secretary of state, desiring that the business might be amicably arranged; so that insubordination, bordering on mutiny, was to be commuted by ail amicable arrangement.—The next object in the system, which he disliked, was the exemptions. In the battalion of reserve, which he commanded in his district, there was a deficiency of 699. On inquiry into the cause, the answer was, they cannot be obtained on account of the numerous exemptions allowed to the volunteers. In the militia in his district, which now consists of two battalions, they were very short of their complement, and from the same cause. It was the same case, also, with the Second Will shire Legmen t0, which was commanded by as active, zealous, and enterprising a nobleman as any in the kingdom, the Earl of Pembroke, who gave the same reason for not being able to complete it.—He now came to notice the army itself; and the recruiting parties had not obtained a tenth of what was wanted. In Marlborough there were 28 parties, and they had obtained to recruits. In Birmingham there were 11 parties, and but of recruits among them all. In short, the whole regular army was at a stand in respect to recruiting, merely owing to the very numerous exemptions which included the whole of the first class of the country. It was time, therefore, that we should rouse from our lethargy. We must not remain supine and idle, as we have been. He would, therefore, humbly propose, that since our engagements are such as nothing but a serious conflict can settle, we ought seriously to think of pouring some life's blood into the army, by filling its ranks with some of the youth and strength of the country. He was sorry to say there was something like compulsion in what he had to offer; but when every thing near and dear to the country; when its first and fairest interests were at stake, it was absolutely necessary to resort to measures which seemed to partake of coercion. He would therefore advise, that a revision should take place of all the ballots which had hitherto been made, in order to fill up the army; something like the first class of men, who were intended to be raised under the defence act. He would not suffer a single man to go out of the country, till our defence was fully provided for, or the necessity for it was over. He would not allow a single soldier to be sent on any quixotic expedition abroad, but he would concentrate our whole force at home, and place it on such a footing, as would enable us, in case the enemy landed, to give him such a reception, as he would not easily get ever. Although, he said, the country might sustain a shock, he would wish ns to live like Englishmen, and like Englshmen to die. He did not find himself at all bigotted to his plan, but had merely thrown it out for the consideration of the House.—He owned he was not favourable to the volunteer system; but if it should be the opinion of the House, that it was proper to continue it, he would wish to see it put on an efficient footing. Whatever might be their determination, he assured the House he should always be ready to shed the last drop of his blood in the service and defence of his country.

Mr. Cartwright

said, he was one of those who thought very favourably of the volunteers, as he was satisfied we could not raise so great a force in any other way. He alluded to one point in the bill to which he felt a very strong objection; he meant "that which prevents any member from retiring from a corps, that had agreed to serve during the war." As the words now stand, no member can retire. This he conceived to be a breach of faith, and ought not to be countenanced. You first tell the men, when they enter, that they have a right to resign; then comes the attorney-general, with an opinion, that they have not, such right; then comes the judgment of the Court of King's Bench, that they have the right; afterwards this act avows distinctly that right; and now comes this provision, which clogs and binds up the will and right of the individual in the offer of a majority to serve during the war. It is neither more nor less than a downright breach of faith; and if the clause was not altered, he would vote against the bill altogether.

Mr. Erskine

said, he was delivered from a great deal of anxiety, by the declaration of the right hon. gent, opposite to him, upon the extension of the bill.—He hoped also, that the right hon. gent, would, upon reflection, feel the propriety of altering the clause, to which the hon. gent, who spoke last, had objected. He meant the clause, which prevented all volunteers from resigning, who had already agreed to continue their services during the war. This clause, he apprehended, the House could not persist in, consistently with the judgment of the Court of King's Bench, and the declarations of ministers subsequent to that decision, slating, that it that had not been declared to be the law, they intended to propose that it should become the law. Now, what was the ground of the decision of the Court of King's Bench upon the question, whether a volunteer had power to resign? It was not furred on the construction but the nature of the, service. If a man came out under arms I upon (he occasion of an invasion, what was the duration of his engagement? The du1ration of that engagement was, as long as the enemy continues in the country, whose entrance into it created that service; but that continuance was not necessarily, and at ill events the same as the duration of the war. Since the judgment of the Court of King's Bench had been given, some volunteer corps had come forward and offered their services during the war; he thought the clause, as it now stood, was too general with regard to such corps. He thought that this bill ought not to tie any volunteers down to any thing that they had hitherto done, but that, before their services should be declared permanent, and that they should not be at liberty to retire from the service, they should be all asked by their commanding officer, "Will you now, knowing as you do, that yon are at liberty to retire if you think fit, wave that right, and agree to serve during this war "If afterwards they assented to this proposition, it might be binding on them: but he would not approve of fastening this permanency of service upon them for any thing they had already done, because that would be imposing terms upon some volunteers which could not effort others. If any one general system of enactment was proposed, by which all his Majesty's subjects were to be affected alike, the volunteers would have no reason to complain, nor would they complain he was confident; but they should not be selected as persons on whom any terms should be fastened different from any other class of his Majesty's subjects.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer

considered that many of the observations already made were premature, as none of the amendments suggested could be made in the present stage of the debate. As to the point of good faith, with the volunteers, government had always made it their ruling principle, in every transaction relative to them; and he should never, for a moment, think of departing from the most scrupulous good faith and attention to that excellent body of men.—He, therefore, thought, that rather than admit even of a doubt on the subject, he would leave the matter as it stood before, and leave out the proviso altogether. But in what related to masters and servants, he could not agree with the learned gent. He thought that the fight of the state to command the services of all, ought not to be impaired by any connexion arising merely between masters and servants.

Mr. Whitbread

thought that many alterations were still necessary in this bill, for which he wished that it should be again committed. Unless these alterations were made, he should feel himself under an obligation to oppose the bill altogether. He contended, that there were certainly no exemptions intended to be given originally, and none were expected; and he was of opinion, that the measure would be far better, now, if the exemptions were taken away altogether, leaving to the volunteers the full right of resignation, if they found the burden too heavy, He then took notice of that, clause which allowed the commanding officer to grant leave of absence to the volunteers. A volunteer, he observed, might be absent for very good reasons, so long that it would be impossible for him, in the course of the year, to make out the number of days required by the act for his exemptions. He also might be confined by sickness in such a manner that he should never be able to come out, even once in the year. Yet in both these cases no provision was made in the bill for the exemption of such persons, which, if exemptions were to be granted at all, was a very great injustice, lie observed, in the bill, that a commanding officer was subjected to a penalty if he made a false return, and yet he was subjected to no penalty, for making no return at all, and the volunteers, therefore, by his neglect, might, in some instances, be deprived of their claim to exemption—With respect to the power granted to the commanding officers of dismissing members from their corps, he wished to know, whether it was intended that he should have this power, notwithstanding any rules to the contrary, in the corps, which had not undergone an examination by his Majesty?—Another thing which he thought unjust was the power given to the commanding officer, of disallowing to any member of his corps, one of his days of drill, upon his supposing that he had not behaved properly. A fault of a very trifling nature, therefore, might be of serious consequence to the volunteer, by depriving him of his exemption. He also thought that point extremely objectionable which went to allow the commanding officer to keep a volunteer in a state of arrest during the time of the drill. This as it appeared to him, would be cither ridiculous or dangerous, by excising a spirit of resentment in the corps. He also was of opinion, that the control of masters over their servants and apprentices, ought not to be removed in any respect, as it might be productive of a great deal of inconveniences, The servants and apprentices thinking it good fun, perhaps, to go a volunteering, might insist upon going at the very tints when it would be most inconvenient for their masters. All this was totally unnecessary, as there were abundance of volunteers without the necessity of removing this control. He observed that the point relating to the payment of fines were worse than before; for now there was no imprisonment at all, but merely a double fine and a distress after 7 days notice, which, in the case of many volunteers, would be nothing else than telling them to run away. He thought die bill very imperfect He disapproved of the system entirely, but now he wished it, such as it was, to be brought to the greatest perfection posssible,

Mr. Secretary Yorke

thought it somewhat strange to say that after all the consideration given to this bill by the House, the system was it; a worse situation than before. There was certainly no material alteration here of the principle of the system; but, at the same time, this bill certainly went to make it more perfect than before. He observed, that the exemptions could not with propriety be taken away-from the volunteers now, after they had been recognized by Parliament. In cases of sickness, volunteers might be allowed to be absent altogether, without feeing deprived of their exemptions. The circumstance, that none could claim exemption, except a return, was made, would be a security for the commanding officer making a return to government. Corps would be allowed to keep to their own regulations about dismissals, unless they had been abrogated As to the disallowing a man a day on account of his bad behaviour, it origin to be recollected that the return was to be made on the spot by the commanding officer, who would have sufficient time to consider of it. In reply to the objections of Gen. Tarleton, he observed, that the yeomanry and volunteers were not under the command of the generals of the districts, until called out on actual service, and, therefore, though one of the volunteer cavalry had refused logo upon a message for him, there was no way by which he could be compelled to do so at present. With regard to the amendment, about which so much bad been said, lie had certainly understood that the volunteers were liable to be called out, in order to take the place of the disposable force, in case of an invasion of Ireland; but he would not press that matter, but rely on the energy of the Volunteers.

Mr. T. Grenville

said, that he had heard the right hon. gent, opposite to him, in Opening the business now before the House, speak of a re-commitment of the bill, but he had since heard no assurance of that kind from any of the ministers. He wished to know in what state of the bill the present discussion took place?

The Speaker

said, that the question before the House was, that the Report of the Committee be now taken into further consideration. Two things, therefore, were at the option of the House, either to agree to the Report, or order the bill to be recommitted; or, instead of now, to appoint it to be taken into consideration on some future day.

Mr. Kinnaird

thought that he should best perform his duty by opposing the receiving of the Report. He viewed the present bill as an inefficient substitute for a crude and undigested system of defence. In all the deliberations on the present bill, the volunteers, he trusted, had been considered as divided into two classes: those who entered in June, and those who had not stepped forward till August. To those of the latter description he begged himself to be understood as applying his observations. During the last session, Parliament had under its consideration the defence act, which, under all its disadvantages, he had no hesitation in thinking infinitely superior to that now-adopted in its head. Under that act, the great body on whom the defence of the country must 1est, would soon have been in a condition, at a small expense, to act in concert with the regular army. They were to have been trained by officers of the line, and were to have been subject to the same number of drill-days as the force now resorted to. He begged it therefore to be considered, what must have been the difference in strength between such a force and one trained under the present system. They were, under the defence act, to have formed a systematic and regular body; by the present act, they were divided into disjointed and unequally disciplined corps.

Sir W. Young

repeated what he had observed upon former occasions, with respect to the distinction which he conceived ought to he made between those volunteers who had come forward previous to the defence act, and those who had been subsequently in rolled. He contended, that the present bill was a bill of distrust, with respect to the volunteers, as it went to inflict penalties, arrest, and imprisonment upon those who had patriotically and zealously come forward in defence of their country.

The Secretary at War

denied that the bill was a bill of distrust with respect to she volunteers. As to the arrest and imprisonment mentioned by the hon. baronet, the latter was not mentioned in the hill, and the former was only introduced to preserve that discipline which was so necessary in volunteer corps, and was at the same time only to continue whilst the corps were under arms. As to the distinction taken by the hon. bait, between two classes of volunteers, nobody denied that there was a distinction between the volunteers who had offered their services at different periods; but, to make that distinction in the exemptions, would be highly invidious. As to the objection urged respecting the drill Serjeants for volunteer corps, the fact was, that the expense was merely transferred from the respective parishes to government. With respect to whit had been stated by the hon. general, as to no orderly dragoon to be found at Bristol, because no one of the volunteer cavalry would become an orderly dragoon to carry a message, he should only observe, that the hon. gent, had no authority to require it, and that it was not exactly the use to be made of volunteer cavalry.

Mr. Alexander

considered the objections that were made against this bill, and against the volunteer system, to be so trifling, compared to the evils to be guarded against, that he thought it would be madness to throw such obstacles in its way as should defeat it altogether. In the volunteers he was convinced we had every advantage we could desire; they constituted a power, that would, in his opinion, be sufficient to meet the armies of France any where. The kingdom never had a land force equal to that of France since the Treaty of Westphalia to the present time. But now all the strength, and all the military elements of the nation were collected, and consolidated in a manner that never before was known; we never before had such a force. Britain was now an armed nation; and the people trained to the use of arms might be put into any shape the government should think proper. But he must ask, what should be the effect of a levy en masse? He had himself an opportunity of witnessing what a levy en masse, or an armed peasantry, were capable of doing. The rebel peasantry of Ireland came forward like a levy en masse, but they were always defeated by a comparatively small body of yeomanry. The difference between England and France at present was, that here we had an immense voluntary force, which cost the kingdom little, and which would be fully adequate to all the purpose, of defence. But in France they were obliged to keep up great standing armies at an immense expense. These armies were necessary to keep the people of France and the conquered countries in subjection. Whenever the French were to meet us, the present land-war would, on our part, be carried on at a less expense than any war we were ever engaged in with them. If the country was to save itself against such an enemy, that could only be done by keeping up our present volunteer force; and the expense attending the establishment was but a trifling insurance for the vast benefits we should gain by it.—The motion for taking the report of the bill into further consideration was then put and carried.

Mr. Fox

said, he wished, for several reasons, which, in the course of that night's debate he should state to the House, that the bill be recommitted. He would leave it to some other member to make a motion to that effect.

Mr. Secretary Yorke

moved, that the amendments in the bill be now read a second time. This motion was then put by the Speaker, who said it was the question then before the House.

Mr. C. Wynne

said, he rose to oppose the second reading of the amendments, in order afterwards to move, that the bill be recommitted. The bill originally pretended to nothing more than to declare the right of resigning in volunteers, agreeable to the judgment of the Court of King's Bench. It now embraced a vast variety of regulations, many of which were of the most dangerous tendency, scarcely any salutary, and almost all equivocally expressed. The bill had done nothing towards forming that complete system for the volunteers which had been acknowledged to be necessary.

Mr. Fox

said, that in opposing the motion for the second reading of the bill, he wished distinctly to be understood, that he did not wish to throw out the bill; he merely wished to have it recommitted, in order that it might be amended. His principal reason for wishing it to be recommitted was what might induce some gentlemen to oppose it altogether; viz. that if it is passed in its present form, it would make the ministers, and what was worse, the legislature, appear contemptible in the eyes of this country, and of foreign countries. The volunteer system, whether it was good or whether it was bad, was admitted, on ail hands, to form a considerable part of the defence of the country; and it was admitted, even by ministers, that the system was one which required revision and alteration. Parliament met on the 13th of November; they had now reached the 10th of March, and the only measures that ministers had taken for the defence of the country, was the bill before the House.—We know that the enemy have made preparations for the invasion of this country, gigantic beyond all former precedent; we were told by the secretary of state, that those menaces were immediately to he carried into execution; we know, that upon the issue of this contest, depends every thing that can be dear to men; and yet, after a session of above four months, the only measure of defence that ministers have brought forward is this bill. Gracious God, Sir, what is there in this bill? No steps have been taken to recruit the army, no means have been taken to improve or complete the army of reserve; all, all has rested upon the volunteers; and this is the bill which ministers have proposed for the completion of the volunteer system. Let any man, the most blindly attached to this bill, be asked, what is its chief merit? and he will say its, that it does that which it was at first professed that it would do, viz. nothing. Mr. Fox said, he liked the volunteer system, because he knew the spirit, the zeal, and the courage of the men who composed that body; no man could deny that the volunteers would be highly useful in the defence of the country, on account of their readiness, their spirit, and their numbers; but did this bill assist them in any of these points? Certainly not. After the time which ministers had taken to prepare the bill, it was natural to suppose that at least they would have considered the regulation they meant to propose; but was that the case? It now appeared, that in case of any attempt upon Ireland, and that an insurrection in that country should unfortunately be the result, all the volunteers of this country might be called oat, and placed under martial law, and must continue soldiers to all intents and purposes while that insurrection lasted; was such a thing ever in the contemplation of the volunteers? But it now seemed that it was to be given up, and certainly better late than never; but this was the system ministers had always pursued with the volunteers; they had done every thing to damp, to check, to harass them; as soon as they were beat from one trench by the volunteers, they took post behind another; and so they were beat out of trench after trench, and still they seemed determined to die as it were in the last ditch. This was the case with regard to the power of resignation; upon this subject the chancellor of the exchequer had, as usual, no opinion; however, he asked the attorney general, who it appeared had a wrong opinion: it was however circulated through the country by the ministers, who professed that they had at the same time an intention of bringing in a bill to give the volunteers a power of resignation, and they wisely wait- ed till the decision of the Court of King's Bench had rendered such a bill unecessary. First of all it was intended that the volunteers might resign, then the attorney general was of opinion that they could not resign, then the Court of king's Bench determined that, they could resign, then the ministers bring in a bill professing to give them the power to resign, and then they insert a proviso in. this bill which in many cases will render it impossible for them to resign, and he had no doubt it would end in their giving up the proviso and saying they had a power to resign. He preferred going into the committee again, because there were many other objectionable clauses; one of them was the clause which took away the exceptions if a man did not attend a certain number of days; but it professed to restore the man to his exemption if he afterwards attended his full number of days; but how was this possible if the corps had been out their full number of days? Was the corps to be called out 8 or 10 days more, to give this man an opportunity of making up his regular number of days? that could not be intended; then it was mere deception to tell a man that it was in his power to recover his exemption. The clause which relates to contracts between masters and servants was equally liable to objection, because it would be a very serious thing in the country to take a servant away from a farmer for 40 days; but that which related to apprentices was still worse. It was an undoubted point that the labour of the apprentice belonged to the master, but this bill took away the apprentice from his master for 40 days. But it would be said, that a compensation was given, and to whom was it given? to the master who had a right to the labour; no, to the apprentice, who was seduced and paid for neglecting his master's labour. Another objection which had been taken by an honorable friend of his, and which had not been answered was, that which rendered the men of any corps liable to all fines and subscriptions agreed to by the majority. There were a great many other objections, but it was unnecessary to repeat them; he had stated enough to shew the necessity of recommitting this bill. What situation would they stand in if this bill were to pass in its present form? It would be this: that Parliament had now sat above 4 months, at a time when this country was threatened with the most formidable invasion that ever any country was threatened with, and that the only measure they had taken for the public defence was, that the volunteers should to exercised 20 days in the year more than before, for this was in fact the only essential clause in the bill. What would the people think? Would they no! suppose, that the story of invasion was only invented to put them on their guard, and that Parliament did not seriously believe it; for they could never suppose, that Parliament would hare thrown away so much time about this bill, if they really expected an invasion, without taking one step to recruit the army of to improve the army of reserve. The volunteers might be like a regular force, in bravery he was sure they would, but then the country would have nothing else, they would have no levy en masse to support them. Every strong arm, every willing heart in the country, that was not it a volunteer corps, would be completely useless in the hour of danger, and they would be in the situation described by a right hon. gent exclaiming, when the enemy landed, "I am desirous to serve my country, but I know not what to do!" The volunteers! were, certainly in a different situation, but he believed three-fourths of them had never fired with ball. He also understood, that in many counties they had not received above 14 or 15 rounds of ammunition; and he instanced the county of Wilts in particular. He was one of those who did not think the danger so great as others; but it certainly was an awful crisis, and he only begged the House to compare the danger with which we were threatened, with this bill, which was all that ministers had prepared to meet it.—The poet had well said, on another subject, "he trembled, when he compared the punishment with the crime,"—meaning how little the one was proportioned to the other. He would say a he, that he trembled, when he compared our danger with cur means of defence. It was impossible to make that comparison, and not to tremble. But, said Mr. Fox, I tremble less, because I do rely upon the volunteers, because I do believe that hot the constant bickering which ministers have had with them, not their fighting with them point after point, and being beat out of trench after trench, not all the contention and litigation which, ministers have had with them, not all the damps and checks which have been thrown upon them, not the refusing their zealous offers of service, not the neglect in furnishing them with ammunition; I do not tremble so much, I say, because I do believe that even all these things cannot destroy the spirit of the country, which will, I am sure, not only rise superior to every effort of the enemy, bin I am even sanguine enough to believe (and I cannot reach a higher climax) that it will rise superior to the weakness, the incapa- city, and the imbecility of the present ministers.

The Attorney General

adverted to the repeated and very diffuse discussions which had taker, place upon thee subject the bill had been twice re-committed, and what gentlemen may have further to propose could, he thought, be very well considered in the present stage of the bill. The hon. gent. (Mr. Fox) had laid much stress upon the supposed delays which had taken place, and the proposition, he so warmly recommended* must induce still further delays. There were one or two slight alterations to be made, which he thought would remove a solid objection which had been advanced, and that evidently could be done in the present stage of the bill.

Dr. Laurence

supported the motion for the recommitment. His principal reason for this was, that a number of the clauses now in the bill were introduced on a day (Saturday) when there was a very thin attendance of members. The bill was now seen for the first time as a whole, since it had last pa-t the committee, and it appeared to him highly proper that it should be now recommitted, to give an opportunity for full and fair discussion of this very interesting subject. The hon. and learned member expressed his decided disapprobation of the clauses as they now stand in the bill, with respect to the right of dismissal, and the compensation to be given to servants and apprentices. Ministers, in his opinion, had done nothing to improve the volunteer system. It was merely a republication of the volunteer system laid down by the late ministers.

Sir J. Writtesley

was for the recommitment. He intimated a wish to move for the introduction of a clause into the bill, for the better regulation of the clause as to the number of days allotted to drill in corps in the country. He adverted to the number of volunteers in the metropolis and its vicinity: their numbers, he understood, were nearly 32,000, but out of the number, if he was rightly informed, nearly one-half had engaged only to extend their services to the vicinity of the capital, even in case of invasion. It was his object that a clause should be introduced, taking the exemptions from those whose services were thus limited.

Mr. Alderman Combe

spoke warmly in praise of the spirit and patriotism of the civic volunteers, and adverted to the circumstance that they were not liable to compulsory service, in the like manner that the inhabitants of the kingdom in general were.

Mr. Pitt

owned that the hill, as it at present stood, did not by any means come up to the fair expectations which the House and the public entertained on the subject; and that the hope which he had formed had been materially disappointed. The only point which had been gained by the bill, was the clause by which encouragement was held out to individuals to enter on permanent pay; and, contemplating a danger, the approach of which might be apprehended to be at hand, this was certainly an advantageous arrangement. He was afraid, however, that even this improvement MMS not carried so far as its vast utility and importance required. There was one other clause which, quite simple in its construction, he likewise viewed to be highly important; he meant to allude to the clause allowing commanding officers the power of arrest, in cases of misbehaviour at muster and drill. Having said this, he had to repeat, that the bill came very far short of what he conceived adequate to the circumstances of the country; anxious, however, as he was for the perfection of the volunteer system, he did not think that any important object would be gained by the recommitment of the bill. It occurred to him, that any amendments to be introduced might be received on the consideration of the report, and therefore he felt it his duty to oppose the motion.

Mr. Sberidan

was of opinion, that whatever idea was entertained of the military system of the country, this was not the moment for such a discussion. If gentlemen thought this a matter fit for inquiry, they might move for a Committee on the subject, and the discussion might regularly take place. At present the question was merely whether certain amendments, the propriety of which was not denied, should be introduced on the report or in a new Committee for that specific purpose. For some time past he had, consistently with a principle which time years ago he had stated in that House, felt it his duty to absent himself from his attendance in Parliament, and he had consequently not been present at the different discussions which had taken place in the previous stages of the bill. This, however, he knew, that the bill had already been in 3 Committees, and the question came to be, if it should go 10 a 4th Committee to receive new amendments and improvements? If the bill as a whole, had not been before the Committee, this would be the strongest argument which he had heard for the recommitment. If a right hon. gent, opposite (Mr. Pitt) would rise and state that he had new clauses to propose in the Committee, or if any other hon. gent, would make a similar declaration, he should certainly vote for the recommitment. Independent of such a declaration he really had heard no ground laid against proceeding to the consideration of the report. He was the more inclined to this opinion from seeing the candid desire of his Majesty's ministers to make every fair concession.

Mr. Pitt

in explanation stated, that he had been misunderstood by the hon. member. He seemed to conceive that he was for the recommitment of the bill, whereas he was against it. Whatever the principle of the hon. gentleman's absence was, if he had been in his place he would have seen that the clauses which he wished to introduce, were not now wanting from any deficiency on his part in proposing them, but from his inability to persuade the House to adopt them.

Mr. Windham

rose, he said, but to trespass on the attention of the House for a fey moments, although before he came down to his place this day he meant to enter much at length into the merits and tendency of the volunteer system, and particularly to reprobate two clauses which had found their way into the bill under consideration, and. which excited his astonish meet in common. with that of every man who valued good faith and justice towards the volunteers. Those clauses, however, having been abandoned by the framers of the bid, and the discussion having taken a turn extreme singular in this stage of the proceeding—a discussion which would more properly belong to a Committee, he felt that he could nut enter upon the consideration of the general measure without great disadvantages. He therefore waved, for the present, the full delivery of his opinions upon the subject, the more particularly as he could not but observe that the attention of the House was nearly exhausted. He, however, could not forbear to say, that he conceived if quite impossible to investigate the merits of the volunteer system, which comprehended above three fourths of the public force, without also taking a view of the other means of our defence, to ascertain how far those means were correspondent to each other and calculated to act efficaciously together. This was a question, in his judgment, of infinite importance, and demanding the most attentive inquiry, inasmuch as it was the commencement of a system, the effects of which would grow on us every day; for the more we advanced in such a situation, the more difficult it would be to change; and, therefore, the farther we proceeded, the stronger would the argument become which was relied upon so much this night, namely, that we had gone too far to recede. For this reason, it was his anxious desire, that we should stop, as soon as possible, the progress of a system so defective, so radically inefficient. When arguing against this system, he wished to correct an error that seemed to prevail in the minds of some gentlemen, that, he and others who joined with him, meant that the volunteers should be disbanded. Nothing could be more erroneous than this idea, for, on the contrary, the principal objections which he and the gentlemen with whom he acted, had to this measure, and which he hoped would not be considered inconsistent, were these, that it would produce the dissolution of the greater part of the volunteers, while it would go to render the volunteer system permanent.—With respect to the motion immediately before the House, he would admit the justice of the remark, that new clauses might be proposed and adopted without recommitting the bill; but yet he W3s for going into the Committee, and for this plain reason, that a Committee was the natural and proper place to discuss such clauses. An hon. gent.(Mr. Sheridan),had urged that it was unnecessary to go into the Committee, as ministers had manifested such candour as left no room to doubt of their readiness to accede to any necessary amendment that might be proposed in this stage of the bill. The hon. gent, however, had probably experienced such candour in his Majesty's ministers, in return for the candour which he had shewn towards them for some time back, as justified, in his mind, the compliments he appeared so strongly disposed to pay them. Reverting to the motion before the House, Mr. W. stated, that in order that the imperfections of the measure might as far as possible be diminished, he would vote for the recommitted,

Mr. Bastard

maintained that the volunteer system did not militate so much as its adversaries asserted against the progress of the ballot for the militia. As a proof of this, he stated, that in the militia of the country to which he belonged, where volunteen crops were very numerous, the regiment of militia of the county to which he belonged, where volunteer corps were very numerous, the regiment of militia was not only complete, but had many supernumeraries, although not more then 10 guineas bounty had ever been giver and he as confident, that if any men were warning for that body, they could be had from among the volunteers them selves, whose spirits, zeal, and military habit, naturally disposed them to enter, if necessary, into regular military service.

Mr. T. Grenville

thought it necessary to say a few words, to explain the motives oh which he should give his vote, and to exculpate his conduct from the charge of any inconsistency that might be made against it. When on a former period of the sessions he moved for some papers, he was induced thereto by his earnest desire to demonstrate to the House, how inadequate the plan of his Majesty's ministers was, and how impossible it ever was to render their system permanent and when he gave his consent for going into a Committee, it was in the expectation that something would be struck out that would place the defence of the country upon something like a broad, general, and practicable principle. He never supposed that desirable object could be effected by the present measure, and he was convinced the more the House considered and turned the subject, the more they would be convinced of the inefficiency, he might say, the absolute nullity of the bill before them. For what had been the conduct of the right hon. the Sec. of State? Much of the time of the House had been occupied in hearing him make his recantations and renunciations of clauses which he had before offered, as the result of much deliberation and communication with persons who were competently informed respecting their, among which was the identical clause, which if that passed, according to I be right hon. gents admission, would have been the extremity of injustice, to at least 3–4ths of the volunteers. There were also 4 or 5 other clauses, which he acknowledged required alteration. With such glaring defects in the bill, he put it to the candour of gentlemen in the least acquainted with the form and practice of that House, whether a Committee was not the only place in which such defects could be properly corrected, and any important amendments proposed.

Mr. Sheridan

stated, that if any gent, had a clause to propose which could not be introduced into the bill without going into a Committee, he would vote for the motion, but not otherwise.

Colonel Caleraft

said, that if the House would to it to the Committee, he should there real it his study to propose a clause respecting the grant of additional pay to the volunteers, and also a further a allowance for clothing.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer

observed, that the recommitted of the bill was not necessary in order to enable the hon. gent, to propose the clause he alluded to, as he might bring it forward in the present stage, and it might afterwards, if adopted, be referred to the consideration of a Committee of Supply.—The House then proceeded to divide, when there appeared

For recommitting the bill 56
Against, it 173
Majority 117
List of the Minority.
Adair, Robert Hamilton, Lord A.
Bouverie, E. Kensington, Lord
Barlow, R. Kinnaird, Hon. Charles
Burdett, Sir Francis Laurence, Dr.
Bagenel, Walter Lee, Antonie
Barclay, Sir R. Morpeth, Lord
Crauturd, Colonel M'Mahon, F.
Caulfield, Hon. H. Madocks, William
Cavendish, Rt.H.Ld. G.H. Milner, Sir William
Courtenay, John Moore, G.
Coke, T. W. Moore, G. P.
Cooke, Brian North, Dudley
Combe, H. C. Ossulston, Lord
Cartwright, W. R. Ord, William
Calcraft, John Petty, Lord H.
Creevey, T. Ponsonby, Rt. Hon. W.
Dillon, Hon. A. Ponsonby, George
Dundas, Hon.C.L. Russell, Lord William
Daly, D. B. Spencer, Lord Robert
Dent, John St. John, Hon. St. Andr.
Ellis, Ch. Rose Seudamore, John
Elliot, Wm. Temple, Lord
Fox, Hon. Chas. Jas. Wrottesley, Sir John
Fitzpatrick, Hon. R. Wynne, Sir W. W.
Folkestone, Lord Wynne, Charles W. W.
Fellowes, R. Windham, Rt, Hon. W.
Francis Philip Walpole, Hon. George
Grenville, Rt. Hon. Th. Young, Sir W.

When strangers were admitted, the House was occupied in receiving the different amendments.

Sir J. Wrottesley

moved an amendment, "that all volunteers, whose services had been accepted subsequent to the 22d June, 1803, should not be entitled to the customary exemptions;, unless they bound themselves to extend their services, in case of invasion, to any part of Great Britain."

Mr. Secretary Yorke

opposed this amendment, as being in substance the same which had been rejected at another period of the bill. There were local and particular circumstances which rendered it unadvisable, that corps should on all occasions volunteer for general service,

Mr. Pitt

supported the amendment, on the principle that it would be extremely desirable that the House and the country should know with certainty what description and extent of service they were to depend upon in case of invasion.—After several other observations from different hon. members, the question was put, and there were

For the amendment 37
Against it 79

The report was ordered to be brought up again to-morrow.—Mr. Pitt said, that as he understood that it was the intention of some of his Majesty's ministers to bring forward a measure that would have a similar tendency, he would, with leave of the House, agree to wait for any reasonable length of time, in order to see how far their measure would go.—The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and the House adjourned at half past two.