§ Mr. Corrymoved, in pursuance of the order of the day, the Committee of the whole Home on the Irish Duty Bill. On the question being put from the chair,—Mr Corry said, that on a former evening an objection had been offered on the measure proposed by this bill, founded on an idea that it went to affect the hereditary revenue of the Crown, and that, therefore, no measure of the kind could be legally entered info, without obtaining his Majesty's previous consent. If he had mistaken the grounds of the objection he should be glad to be set right; and 840 as he saw the right hen. gent. (Mr. Foster) in his place, begged to to be informed if he had not stated the objection fairly.
Mr. Fosteradmitted that such certainly were the grounds of his objection, and. to which he was still inclined to adhere.
§ Mr. Corryadmitted, that the interests of the Crown were affected by the present measure, but wished the House to consider in what manner they were affected; if it was not in the same manner as by similar measures adopted in this country. The hereditary revenue of the Crown took its origin in Ireland about the same period as in this country, and is, perhaps, more extensive there than here; he meant, he said, in its operation. The right hon. gent. here mentioned several duties which were rot known in this country. For the defence of the country there was also an excise inland and import, and for defending the seas, as it was called, customs had been granted. But it was not till the reign of Charles the II. that any hereditary or private revenue had been granted to the Crown. In the 14th and 15th of Charles II. duties had been granted for this purpose on teas and tobacco. A duty of 2½d per lb. on tobacco was granted to Charles II. Additional duties had been granted also to William III. on the same article, but with a clause, at the same time, declaring 2½d per pound, as formerly, the hereditary duty, and were continued so till the Consolidation Act, in the 31st of the present King, when 2½und was again declared to be the hereditary duty, and those additional duties were supposed to expire on the demise of the King. In the 31st of the King also a civil list was granted to his Majesty, on the same principles as in this country; and this civil list was considered as an equivalent for the hereditary duties belonging to the Crown, and as accepted instead of them. That they might have the hereditary revenue in their own power, they entered into a contract with the Crown. Whatever the amount of the hereditary revenues might be, they thus reserved the power of increasing or diminishing, or otherwise modifying them. After the civil list had been thus established, other additional duties were granted sessionally, some, times for 5 years running. These were at first granted triennially, when Parliament was triennial; and afterwards annually; but uniformly the same clause in regard to the 2½d per pound on tobacco, as the hereditary duty, was inserted, for which no consent of the Crown was ever asked or 841 given. For this reason the right hon. gent. conceived, that the precedents of the Parliament of Ireland would by no means justify any objection of that kind that was brought forward. In the 14th and 15th of Charles II. a duty of 6 per cent, had been laid on tea. That duty continued to be Levied ad valorem according to the old book of rates, till Geo. II. when a new bock of rates was made out, and a new duty on tea, higher in proportion to its raised value in the new book of rates. This continued till the 7th of the King, when, instead of a duty ad valorem. it was enacted that a duty of 4d. par pound on the black, and 6d. per pound on the green should be levied. The duty on the whole might amount to 10,000l. but it was enacted that 7,300 l. should be the hereditary portion dne to the Crown. This was done without the Crown having signified any consent to Parliament. Tobacco and tea were thus the only two articles from which the hereditary revenue was supposed to arise; and in order that the hereditary part of the revenue might not be affected, a permanent rate had been fixed, so that any deficiency might be made up to the Crown, and that the surplus, when any, might be applied to the public service. These annual duties, the right hon. gent. further insisted, had even been continued three different times since the union, without any intimation from the crown. The right hon. gent. (Mr. Foster) who had managed those revenues, which were now entrusted to him, would feel, he flattered himself, the justice of what he had said. His recollection and greater experience would enable him even to corroborate more strongly his statement. But not only were the precedents of the Parliament of Ireland in favour of his mode of procedure, but those of the British Parliament also, in relation to the same subject. A case perfectly the same had occured in the 37th of the King, in regard to the consolidated fund, when it was enacted that a certain fixed sum should belong to the Crow, and that the surplus should go to the public service. The consent of the Crown on this occasion was not asked, nor was such a previous step deemed necessary to enable Parliament to proceed.—Should any gent, however, be disposed to attribute this circumstance to want of attention in the House, and still insist that it was a step previously necessary to obtain his Majesty's consent, he would by no means resist the proposition, nor could he have any objection to consult the Crown an a subject of this nature.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerwas of opinion, that his right hon. friend was sufficiently justified by the precedents he had adduced in his behalf. He had at any rate given the House an opportunity to investigate the proper mode of proceeding. For his own part, he was perfectly satisfied, at the same time, that should the Crown withhold its consent from such a measure, no precedents whatever could justify the House in their farther proceeding where the interests of the Crown were in any degree affected. Put this consent might be given or with held at any stage of the bill. It could not be learned from the title of the bill that the interests of the Crown are concerned. It was from the statement of the right hon. gent. only, that he had learned that the Crown was concerned in the present bill; and having learned this, he had applied to his Majesty, and had authority to say, that his Majesty gave his consent in the most ample manner.
Mr. Fosterstated, that the duties on tea and tobacco were far from being prominent objsct3 in his mind when he had started the objection. It was the interest of the Crown in general he had considered, and those not only as they related to the life of his present Majesty, but as they affected his successor.
Mr. Rosesaid, that the House might, perhaps, not be aware of what was the proper mode of procedure on such an occasion, but it was certainly much obliged to the right hon. gent. for his objections on a former evening, as it had led to an application to his Majesty, the result of which was so agreeable to the House. The question certainly was not in regard to the amount to which the Crown might be interested, but in regard to the principle. It was quite indifferent whether it was 500 or 5,000, but whether the measure was constitutional. It was unconstitutional, be thought, that any alteration should take place in the fixed revenues without a message from the Crown. Whatever may have been the practice of the Irish Parliament, such a proceeding was certainly contrary to the practice of the British Parliament. The House may perhaps be satisfied with this method of getting information of the consent of the Crown, but he wished it to be understood, that, in his opinion, it was by no means the usual way, and that nothing less than a message was constitutional.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerwas willing to appeal to the House, if a message was at ail necessary on such an occasion. Many instances such as this had occurred on grants, and on Committees of Supply, where 843 the Crown was interested, and where the consent was not deemed previously necessary. But so far as the interest of the Crown was concerned, he again repeated, that the consent in question was fully given.
Mr. Roseagain begged leave to say, that in regard to the consolidation of the duties in 1797, the interests of the Crown were perfectly safe, and that the cases were cot quite analogous.
§ Mr. G. Ponsonbywas surprised that on this bill no communication from the Crown should be thought necessary. When a bill of nearly the same nature passed in Ireland in the year 1793, a message had been received from the Lord Lieut., and that message ordered to be ingrossed in the books previous to any proceedings of Parliament.
§ Mr. Ormsbybegged to remind the House, that in the 34th of the King, an act passed of nearly the same nature, without any message whatever from the Crown.
Mr. Vansittartstated, that his principal motive in rising was only to say in regard to the heriditary interest of the Crown, that the act of the 30th of George II. was passed without any notice from the Crown.
Mr. Fosterwas of opinion that, even if his present Majesty should be satisfied, it was necessary also that he should intimate his approbation and consent as far as respected his successor, or the interests of the Crown at large.
The Chancellor of tie Exchequerbegged leave explicitly to state, that his Majesty had given the fullest consent, not only in regard to himself, but as it respected also the general interests of the Crown: but at the same time he wished to state, that his Majesty did not mean that the House should be fettered in the smallest degree in their discussions.—The question was agreed to,—The House having resolved into the Committee,
Mr. Fosterrose, and objected to the mode of proceeding which the framers of this measure recommended, as it went to render taxes permanent which had been heretofore but annually voted. This was in his mind taking the Irish nation by surprize, from which he was confident that a number of petitions would be immediately presented, if the merchants were aware of the nature of the bill and the additional taxes which it proposed to impose, particularly on linen, salt, hops. &c. He thought the measure of perpetuating the taxes objectionable, as involving an invasion of the rights of ids Majesty's successor, also in point of time, as the period was so rapidly approaching when, from the relative state of the debts of the two countries a total revision of the taxes would 844 become necessary. The right hon. gent, concluded with moving an amendment, "that the period for the continuance of those taxes should be fixed for the 25th of March, 1805."
§ Mr. Corryobserved, that to all which the right hon. gent, advanced, he had already made, in his judgment, quite a sufficient reply; and, therefore, as often as such arguments were repeated, he must be under the necessity of troubling the House with a repetition of his former answer, thus imitating; the conduct of a right hon. gent. who, when; any motion or speech was made against the American war, always said, that he would read his American speech, which contained arguments to his mind of the policy of that war, arguments which appeared to him to require no addition. The right hon. gent, proceeded to state "the superior advantages which the linen manufacturers had over the manufacturers of this country, every article belonging to that manufacture, except flax, being subject to a tax in this country, while ail the same articles, namely, pot ash, barilla, train oil, &c. were exempt from taxation in Ireland. He complained of the species of observation used by the mover of the amendment, as calculated to mislead and inflame the public mind with respect to the amount of taxes which were necessary in order to protect the very existence of the country.
§ Mr. Burroughsagreed with the right hon. gent, who moved the amendment, as to the propriety of allowing time to the Irish merchants, and other persons interested, to inquire into and communicate their opinions upon the different taxes. This was the more necessary as the schedule of those taxes was only printed and delivered on Tuesday last, since when even the members of that House had scarce had time to examine it. With the general principle laid down by the right hon. gent, on the Treasury Bench, as to the justice of equal taxation upon the same manufactures of both countries, he did not mean to dispute; but as it appeared to him the question to consider was, how far the peculiar state of the manufacture in each country would justify the House in acting upon such principle; and here it was material to be recollected that linen was the staple trade of Ireland.
§ Mr. Corrysaid, that the schedule of the taxes laid before Parliament last session was very generally circulated among the merchants in Ireland; but he was ready to admit that there was some difference between that and the schedule now before the Committee.
Lord Castlereaghrecommended, that time should be taken to examine and compare the schedule now before the Committee with that of last year, which his right hon. friend had stated to have been circulated among the persons interested in the taxes referred to; and if any substantial difference should be found to exist he was sure that his hon. friend would be as willing as any member of the House, to press the adoption of the bill until the Irish merchants should have full opportunity to canvass the merits, and to state their opinions upon every part of the schedule; at the same time he begged to call to the recollection of gentlemen, that 3 years had now nearly elapsed since it was known to be in contemplation to render those taxes perpetual, that is to say, to assimilate the concerns of the Irish revenue to the practice which prevailed in this country, and to the soundness of the principle, he conceived, that no objection could be offered, for cither the proposed annual review of those taxes must be a mere parade, or the public creditor must be, inn great measure, insecure. The noble lord then moved, that the chairman should be directed to report progress, and ask leave to sit again.
§ Mr. G. Ponsonbyexpressed his hope that that postponement was a prelude to the abandonment altogether of this obnoxious plan of taxation.
§ Mr. Foxsaid, that if it was intended to render those taxes perpetual, nothwithstanding all that had been urged to the contrary, the House might as well come to a vote on the subject this night; but if the purposed delay was merely a temporary retreat, from a consideration that it would be more decorous to give apparent time for the consideration of the schedule, and that the time of the House was meant to be again occupied with the same discussion, he could not forbear to condemn such an expedient.
The Chancellor of the Exchequerobserved, that no gent, was in titled to assume from any thing that had fallen from his noble friend, that it was at all intended to abandon the proposed assimilation of the mode of taxation in Ireland, with that which existed in this country. The only delay proposed in the progress of the measure was until tomorrow, and the only motive of that delay was to give an opportunity to his right hon. friend (Mr. Corry), to compare the two schedules for the purpose described by his noble friend.
Mr. John Lasoucbpressed strongly for further time, from a sense of duty to a great proportion of his constituents, the merchants of Dublin, who were particularly interested, 846 and whose opinion ought to be consulted before such a bill were suffered to pass the House. The motion was agreed to that the Chairman should report progress, and ask leave to sit again to-morrow. The House resumed, and the Chairman obtained leave accordingly.