CLASS II. (Hansard, 22 August 1804)

THE PRESIDENT OF THE LOCAL GOVERNMENT BOARD (Mr. SHAWLEFEVRE,) Bradford, Central
said, the House would recollect that on Monday last the hon. Member for the Carnarvon Boroughs raised a Debate with regard to the Registrar General's Report on the Census of 1891 in Wales, and stated that that official had imputed that many of the Welsh people had wilfully made misstatements with the view of increasing the number of those who were returned as speaking the Welsh language only.

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE
said, the Registrar General went further than that, and suggested that the Returns were not reliable.

MR. SHAW-LEFEVRE
said, the hon. Member imputed that the Registrar General, in his Report, had insinuated that the Welsh people had wilfully and purposely, and almost fraudulently, filled up the Returns in a manner which was not consistent with truth. At the time he (Mr. Shaw-Lefevre) said he felt certain that that could not have been the intention of the Registrar General, and that he did not think on the face of the Report that that was the meaning of the paragraphs complained of. He also promised that he would communicate with the Registrar General, and ascertain from him what was his real view of the matter. He had done so, and he had received from the Registrar General a most emphatic statement that he had no intention whatever of imputing that the Welsh people had wilfully and improperly filled up these Returns. All that he intended to convey in his Report was that there had been some misunderstanding as to the requirements of the schedule on the part of the Welsh people in some districts, the result of which was that some of the Returns were not altogether reliable. The hon. Member must not think that this explanation of the Registrar General was made specially in consequence of the Debate of Monday, for he would point out that the present Secretary of State for India (Mr. H. H. Fowler), who was at that time President of the Local 320 Government Board, at the beginning of the year, answering a question on the same subject, put to him by the hon. Member for Oswestry, said— He had no power to direct that a fresh inquiry should be made as to the number of people speaking Welsh, and that the Registrar General had no evidence that any person wilfully and knowingly made false Returns in Wales. There was an emphatic statement on the part of the Registrar General at that time that the passage to which the hon. Member for the Carnarvon Boroughs referred on Monday did not admit of the meaning which that hon. Member placed upon it. He had to state on the part of the Registrar General that he had no intention whatever of reflecting on the Welsh people in the sense in which the hon. Member complained of. At the same time, he must admit that he thought the language used by the Registrar General might have been more explicit; and having regard to the fact that it had given rise to a feeling of irritation in Wales, he regretted that the language had not made it clear what was really meant. He would, therefore, advise the Registrar General to embody, in a letter to him, an emphatic denial that he intended the passages of his Report complained of to bear the meaning imputed to them, and that he withdrew any expression which would appear to lead in that direction. That letter might be laid before the House in the form of a Parliamentary Paper. It would remain on record, and would be taken in connection with the Report of the Census in any reference in future Debates. There were one or two other points arising out of the Debate of Monday last to which he desired to refer. An hon. Member asked whether there was any foundation whatever for the statement that the Registrar General had communications with the Bishop and clergy of the Established Church in Wales; and to that the Registrar General replied that the only communication of the kind he had had was a telegram from the Bishop of Asaph on the subject yesterday morning. He had also received a communication from Mr. Ritchie with reference to this matter. An hon. Member on Monday night alleged that there had been an admission by Mr. Ritchie of mismanagement on the part of the Registrar General, 321 and Mr. Ritchie wished to dissociate himself from any such admission. He wrote— I see that last night in the House of Commons Mr. J. H. Lewis is reported to have said that I had admitted in the House mismanagement on the part of the Registrar General in connection with the Welsh Census. I wish to dissociate myself from any such charge. It is true that there was some mistake of a very limited kind made in, I think, a very limited area. This I admitted in the House, but I did not admit anything approaching to mismanagement generally in connection with the Welsh Census, and certainly not on the part of the Registrar General, who devoted himself most zealously to secure that the Census should be full and fair; and not once during the many communications I had with him on the subject was it possible to detect the smallest trace of partiality or bias on his part.

MR. HERBERT LEWIS
said, that what Mr. Ritchie had admitted was that the supply of forms in the Welsh language was not so great as the demand.

MR. SHAW-LEFEVRE
said, that as to the want of a proper supply of schedules in the Welsh language, there appeared to have been a kind of patriotic movement in Wales to fill up the schedules in the Welsh language to a far greater degree than before, and although 25 per cent, more papers were furnished than in 1881 the supply proved insufficient, but where any difficulty of that kind arose steps were taken to remedy the defect. He hoped hon. Members would be satisfied with the assurance that the Registrar General had no intention whatever to throw any imputation on the Welsh people.

MR. LLOYD-GEORGE (Carnarvon, &c.)
said, that the right hon. Gentleman had simply addressed himself to the imputation made by the Registrar General on the truthfulness of the Welsh people in filling up the Census Returns. He had not addressed himself to the more important point from the Parliamentary point of view of the reliability of the Returns. The Registrar General in his Report said— We do not think that much value can be attached to the figures which are given in our tables. What did those words mean? Either the Returns were reliable or they were, not, and the Registrar ought either to defend his Report or withdraw the imputation on the reliability of the Returns made by the Welsh people. The issue was a perfectly clear one. Census papers 322 were distributed through Wales. In one column of the paper the people were to make a return as to the language they spoke. Surely the people themselves were better judges as to the language they spoke than the Registrar General. The result of the Census was that 500,000 of the people returned themselves as speaking Welsh only, 400,000 as speaking both Welsh and English, and the remainder as English-speaking. Upon what evidence had the Registrar General come to the conclusion that those figures were not correct? Without any evidence, either set forth or indicated in the slightest degree, the Registrar General came to the conclusion that the whole Returns were unreliable. This was not a small matter. If the Registrar General was right in his inference as to those Returns, Parliament could not place the slightest reliance upon any Returns made by the Welsh people in the future as to their habits and customs and language. Several social and political questions would have to be decided on, whether it was or was not true that there were some thousands of people in Wales who did not understand the English language at all. For instance, a short time ago he raised in the House the question of the appointment of a County Court Judge, who could not speak Welsh to a Welsh-speaking district. The reply that was given to him was that this district was not a Welsh-speaking district, and that the people were able to give their evidence clearly in the English tongue. What a valuable Report in refutation of that statement would the Report of the Census of 1891 have been were it not for the unfounded comments of the Registrar General! The fact was, that the Census Returns for Wales had been rendered perfectly worthless by the insinuations which the Registrar General had thought fit to make. He should express his dissatisfaction with the statement of the right hon. Gentleman, and he was determined to take the opinion of this House upon the subject. If the Government had no control over the Registrar General the House had, and he would therefore move a reduction in the Vote on the ground that there was no evidence to justify that official in aspersing the whole of the Welsh Returns. The slur that 323 permanent official had cast upon the Welsh people rendered these Returns valueless for all future purposes, political and social. They must show such men that they could not make false statements with regard to the Welsh people, falsify Returns, and colour Reports with a political object in view, without having the censure of the House of Commons visited upon them. He therefore moved the reduction of the Vote by £100.

MR. EDWARDS (Radnorshire)
supported the reduction. He did not understand the English language if the Registrar General did not in his Report deliberately impute inaccuracies in the Welsh Returns, and wrong-doing on the part of the Welsh people. Misrepresentations as to the number of Welsh-speaking people might have important results in connection with the controversy in Wales between the Established Church and the Nonconformists. The great charge that the latter made against the Establishment was that it had failed in its duties because it did not minister to the people in the language of the people. The Registrar General's Report would be relied upon by the friends of the Establishment as a proof that the number of Welsh-speaking people in Wales was greatly exaggerated, and that, therefore, the Church did minister to the people in the language of the people. The misrepresentations in the Report were, therefore, justly resented by the friends of the monoglot Welshman. The Registrar General, who was said not to have cast any imputation upon Welshmen, used these words— Abundant evidence has been received by us that the Returns were either misunderstood or set at nought. What ground had the Registrar General for saying that? He held that this Report ought to be set aside, and that another Report should be supplied, containing statistics only, and no official imputations or opinions.

MR. HERBERT LEWIS (Flint, &c.)
hoped that this Report would be with- 324 drawn and an impartial Report substituted for it. In every line of the Report animus and bias were apparent, and the imputations which it contained were so insulting to the Welsh people that their Representatives could not submit to them. It was very important when a Census was taken that an adequate supply of Census papers should be printed in the Welsh language. They earnestly hoped the right hon. Gentleman would give them the reasonable satisfaction for which they asked.

§ MAJOR JONES (Carmarthen, &c.)
said, that if hon. Members were surprised at the warmth shown by Members from Wales on the question, he would point out that this was not the first time upon which calumnies against the Welsh people had been put into the form of official documents. He would ask the right hon. Gentleman to request the Registrar General either to justify or withdraw his allegations against the Welsh people.