HC Deb 15 August 1839 vol 50 cc358-61

The Chancellor of the Exchequer moved the Order of the Day for a Committee on the Bank of Ireland Bill.

On the question, that the Speaker do leave the chair,

Mr. O'Connell moved, that the House resolve itself into a Committee that day three months. He declared, that, in the present thin attendance of Members, it was not fitting that a bill of so much importance to Ireland should be proceeded with.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer

said, that as the bill was for the public interest, he was determined to persevere with it. This was what he was determined to do; for, until the measure were disposed of on its merits, and by way of fair argument, he should feel he deserted his duty to the country, if he allowed it to be defeated by the mere mechanical means of successive divisions.

Mr. Ellis

hoped the House would persevere in its opposition, and lay down the principle, that no Minister should ever attempt to take that House by surprise, and inflict serious injury on Ireland.

The House divided on the original motion:—Ayes 36; Noes 17: Majority 29.

List of the Ayes.
Baring, F. T. Milton, viscount
Bernal, R. Norreys, Lord
Briscoe, J. I. O'Ferrall, R. M.
Broadley, H. Pigol, D. R.
Brotherton, J. Polhill, F.
Brownrigg, S. Price, Sir R.
Buller, C. Pryme, G.
Currie, R. Reid, Sir J. R.
Darby, G. Rice, rt. hon. T. S.
Dick, Q. Rich, H.
Divett, E. Rolfe, Sir R. M.
Donkin, Sir R. S. Rutherfurd, rt. hn. A.
Douglas, Sir C. E. Smith, J. A.
Fremantle, Sir T. Smith, B.
Grey, rt. hon. Sir G. Somerset, Lord G.
Hawes, B. Townley, R. G.
Hodgson, R.
Howick, Viscount TELLERS.
Kemble, H. Stanley, E. J.
Lincoln, Earl of Parker, J.
List of the NOES.
Attwood, T. Redington, T. N.
Bridgeman, H. Sheil, R. L.
Bryan, G. Somers, J. P.
Callaghan, D. Somerville, Sir W. M.
Ellis, J. Vigors, N. A.
Finch, F. Wakley, T.
Hindley, C. Wyse, T.
Langdale, hon. C. TEL
Muskett, G. A. Hume, J.
O'Connell, M. J. O'Connell, M. J.

House in Committee.

On Clause 2 being read,

Mr. O'Connell moved, that the Chairman do report progress, and ask leave to sit again. He should lose no opportunity of dividing the House on the remainder of the bill. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had taunted him with not making a call of the House on this bill; if he had had the least chance of success, he would have moved for a call of the House, but he had not, and had therefore abandoned that intention. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had the power to prevent his succeeding in that motion through the aid of the Ministerial Members, and now taunted him with not making it. The very object of the privilege of Members to divide the House at any stage of the bill, was precisely to meet a case like the present, and Heaven forbid that he should shrink from the performance of his duty. The right hon. Gentleman had himself told a meeting of fifteen Members, in Downing-street, that notice had been given to the Bank of Ireland that the charter was to be discontinued.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer

I beg to contradict the hon. Gentleman in the most distinct manner I can.

Mr. O'Connell

And I beg to contradict the right hon. Gentleman in the most distinct manner I can. (Cries of "Order!" "Chair!")

Mr. Ellis

I rise to order. ("Chair!" "Order!") I rise most distinctly to deny the right hon. Gentleman's assertion. The right hon. Gentleman has told the hon. Member to adhere to the rules of the House, and now he has broken them himself.

Mr. O'Connell

said, he had been taunted for not having the House full; he should do all he could to have the House full. It was said that by postponing this measure the Bank of Ireland would continue; he admitted it. It was said there would be no inconvenience from this—

Mr. Finch

I rise to order. I think I see a gentleman under the gallery taking notes.

The Chancellor of the Exchequer

said, there was no power of taking notes at all in the House. If the objection of the hon. Member were to taking notes, it would extend to other parties in the House. Unquestionably, persons below the Bar of the House were considered as out of Parliament. If the act of taking notes were objected to, the gentlemen in the gallery taking notes must be objected to.

Mr. Finch

said, the right hon. Gentleman had not made the distinction between the cases, which must be obvious to every Gentleman in the House. His objection was not to the gentlemen in the gallery taking notes, but to individuals under the gallery taking notes. That course was not the proper one. He saw on the other side the hon. Member for Oxford University, to whose opinion, in questions of this kind, he paid the greatest deference, and to whom he would appeal, and he thought he should have his support.

Sir R. Inglis

was not prepared to give an opinion upon it. The objection, ac- cording to the rules of the Mouse, was not to strangers taking notes, but to strangers being in the gallery, and it was in the power of any hon. Member to say, "I spy a stranger in the gallery," and it was then the old practice for the Chairman to move "that strangers do withdraw." He apprehended that the hon. Member did not intend his motion to go that extent.

Mr. Finch

said, he believed the proper; course in this matter must rather rest with another Gentleman, who usually sat at the other end of the House (we believe the Serjeant-at-Arms); therefore, having called the attention of the House to it, he had done.

Sir T. Fremantle

believed the hon. Gentleman was under a mistake. He believed, it was as consistent for the strangers sitting at one end of the House to take notes as for the strangers sitting at the other.

Mr. Baring

believed the old practice was for strangers to take notes in the old gallery for strangers. He did not know that they had given any particular privilege to any one part of the House.

Mr. Finch

hoped it would be understood, that any gentleman who went below the Bar in the strangers' part of the House, might in future be permitted to take notes.

Mr. O'Connell

resumed. Never had there been a more gross neglect of duty than the non-service of the notice on the Bank. He had not called for petitions on this subject from the city of Dublin, because he had not time to do so. The country was in a sad state; he believed it was never in a worse state, financial and political, and the right hon. Gentleman seemed disposed to revenge all this upon unfortunate Ireland; like the man who, finding himself embarrassed in the world, went home and beat his wife and children. The hon. and learned Member proceeded to explain the causes which had kept away some Irish Members. Whilst he accounted for their absence, he might taunt the right hon. Gentleman with bringing forward the measure at so late a period. From first to last he had been in fault; he was in fault for keeping the people of Ireland in ignorance for twelve months; he was in fault for not bringing in the measure sooner, and the arguments which he had used damaged his own case. He should move that the Chairman report progress,—House counted out.