Public Appointments (Hansard, 26 January 2004)

§ Lord Bassam of Brighton
My Lords, diversity is increasing. For example, women now hold 35.7 per cent of public appointments compared with 32 per cent in 1997. The Government want boards of public bodies both to be appointed on merit, having the necessary skills and experience, and to be more representative of society as a whole. Delivering Diversity in Public Appointments 2003 outlines what each central government department is doing to increase diversity on the boards of its public bodies and includes individual departmental action plans and targets. Progress has been made but there is still much more to do.

§ Baroness Howe of Idlicote
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that helpful and partly encouraging reply. However, can he give a firmer guarantee that all those targets, particularly the 45 to 50 per cent target for women, will be achieved by 2006? Will the Minister focus for a moment on appointments to senior positions? Will he give an undertaking to make public annually the percentages of women and other groups who hold positions of chairmen and deputy chairmen and give the comparison between the percentage of the same groups that hold remunerated rather than non-remunerated positions?

§ Lord Bassam of Brighton
My Lords, it would be impossible for me to commit the Government 4 absolutely to meeting all of those targets in the time-frame that the noble Baroness has outlined, not least because only around 10 per cent of public appointments come up annually. Hitting those targets is a somewhat imprecise science. I am aware that in the past the noble Baroness has asked questions about senior appointments. My understanding is that, from responses given in Written Answers, those data are publicly available and can be published regularly.

§ Baroness Gardner of Parkes
My Lords, will the Minister say whether times have changed since I sat on a women's committee, trying desperately to achieve more women appointments and we were given "the old run-around"? When we applied to the departments they said, "No, you need to go onto the general list". When we applied to the general list we were told that each department holds its own. Has that changed and is there any more direct way for women to get there now?

§ Lord Bassam of Brighton
My Lords, I would hate to think that the noble Baroness was given the "run-around". That is an appalling prospect which I could not support at all. Since the Government came into office in 1997 the percentage of women appointed to public bodies has increased. With the setting of targets—and the meeting of them by many departments—we are achieving much more than was achieved in the past. I am sure that all noble Lords would support that.

§ Baroness Warnock
My Lords, is the Minister able to answer the second part of the Question asked by my noble friend Lady Howe: is it possible to publish the proportions of paid and unpaid senior appointments?

§ Lord Bassam of Brighton
My Lords, I shall certainly undertake to see whether we can achieve that, as it is highly desirable.

§ Baroness Whitaker
My Lords, does my noble friend share my disappointment that it is only women asking all these supplementary questions?

§ Lord Hunt of Chesterton
My Lords, that is because the women are jumping in earlier than the men.

§ Lord Bassam of Brighton
Am I disappointed, my Lords? Yes, I suppose that I am.

§ Lord Hunt of Chesterton
My Lords, perhaps I may make a comment—or pose a question. A very firm letter should be sent to government executives along the lines of those that I received when I was at the Met Office, which transformed the numbers of women and ethnic minorities on our board. Are the Government really pressing the matter? The difference between departments is extraordinary. Some have very few numbers; others are doing very well. Why is there such a big difference?

§ Lord Bassam of Brighton
My Lords, it does vary; I am sure that there are explanations. One is that the rate at which public appointments come up is much slower in some departments by comparison with others. Some problems will be inherited; for example, having smaller numbers of people with the right technical expertise for more technical appointments. But the noble Lord is right; we must do everything that we can to encourage meeting and matching the targets that the Government have rightly set.

§ Lord McNally
My Lords—

§ Baroness Chalker of Wallasey
My Lords—

§ Lord McNally
My Lords, is the Minister aware that the reason that the ladies got in first is that the age of gallantry has not passed on the Liberal Democrat Benches? I have ruined my point slightly, but I did not give way to the noble Baroness because she was always thought of as one of the chaps in the Foreign Office.
Is the Minister aware that this is a wholly welcome initiative, but that women often tend to be more self-censoring than men on their fitness for public office? How much effort are the Government putting into mentoring and getting publicity to women outside the usual circles to inform them that jobs are available, and that they are qualified and will be given help to do the job?

§ Lord Bassam of Brighton
My Lords, the noble Lord was moving into rather dangerous territory; I shall not dig any further. He made a very serious point in the end. As part of the programme of opening up public appointments, the Government have concentrated on giving support and encouragement to more women to come forward, with the holding of seminars, open days and so on, so that there is positive encouragement to take up positions in public bodies. From the feedback and research undertaken, that seems to be having a very positive effect on appointments.

§ Baroness Chalker of Wallasey
My Lords, will the Minister kindly undertake to ensure that the Government publish, department by department, notice of the appointments coming up? There have been cases where women who were interested found out far too late. It is not always easy, from the publications so far printed, for women to find out when appointments are coming up. We can help women to apply for public appointments only if there is knowledge.

§ Lord Bassam of Brighton
My Lords, I thought that we were improving how public appointments are advertised, but the noble Baroness makes an important point. I will speak to officials and see whether we can do more to promote the opening up of those appointments and to ensure that there is greater knowledge and awareness of them.

§ Lord Chan
My Lords, does the Minister agree that only the Department of Health has met its 6 appointment targets for ethnic minorities? If that is the case, why do other departments not seem to meet their targets for ethnic minorities; for example, in the appointment of justices of the peace?

§ Lord Bassam of Brighton
My Lords, the simple answer regarding the Department of Health is that there is a far larger volume of appointments; therefore, there is much more scope for that department to hit its targets. Useful progress has been made in the Home Office. The Department for Constitutional Affairs is now responsible for nearly all appointments, particularly those of magistrates and so on. The appointment of ethnic minorities to public bodies is at 5.3 per cent, an increase from 3.6 per cent in 1997. Useful progress has been made across the board.

§ Baroness Seccombe
My Lords, the Minister said in his Answer that there had been an increase from 32 to 35 per cent since 1997. Does he agree with me that the very significant increase took place between 1992 and 1997, from 26 to 32 per cent, and that that was a cause for celebration?

§ Lord Bassam of Brighton
My Lords, it is obviously a cause for celebration that there has been an increase year on year in the number of women appointed to public bodies. The noble Baroness says that 28 per cent were appointed in 1992; I think that that figure was for 1993, but it rose to 32 per cent by 1997 and to 35.7 per cent by 2003.

§ Baroness Thomas of Walliswood
My Lords, the Minister referred to the varying levels of achievement based on historic trends and so on. Why are the targets so variable? Those for some of the biggest departments, the Department of Health and the DTI, are 45 to 55 per cent, but for the Food Standards Agency and the Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs—both areas of great interest to women, on which they might have a lot of knowledge, one would have thought—the targets for the coming year are only 35 per cent and 27 per cent of the numbers respectively.

§ Lord Bassam of Brighton
My Lords, departments must be looked at separately to see where they are starting from. Obviously, some departments start from a lot further back. As I explained at the outset, the rate of turnover affects their ability to meet and match those targets. It is all very well setting a higher level or a higher target, but it is somewhat unrealistic to do so if the number of appointments coming up is low. It varies from department to department, and it will depend on the starting point from which they come.

Lord Berkeley
My Lords, does my noble friend see any connection between the gender mix of the selection committee, or the people who are recruiting, and how many women are taken on? If it is an all-male committee, is there not a likelihood that it will appoint mostly men as opposed to women?

§ Lord Bassam of Brighton
My Lords, that may well have been an influence in the past. One would like to be optimistic and suggest that it is not an influence and will not be in the future. We must have targets in place, so there is an obligation on each and every department to meet that target and improve the levels of female representation, ethnic minority representation and representation of people with a disability.