Pakistan High Commission, London (Hansard, 12 November 2003)

§ The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Scotland of Asthal)
My Lords, it is the long-standing policy of successive governments to neither confirm nor deny allegations concerning the activities of the intelligence and security agencies.

§ Lord Ahmed
My Lords, I thank my noble friend the Minister for her reply—

Noble Lords
Oh!

§ Lord Ahmed
Well, my Lords, her helpful reply. Given that a Sunday newspaper has printed full details of this whole saga, should Her Majesty's Government not say whether the report is true and whether Pakistan is a friend or a foe? If the reports are correct, how will this affect our relations with Pakistan's Government, who have been part of the coalition on the international war against terrorism? Finally, how many British citizens are bugged annually, including Members of Parliament?

§ Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, my noble friend seeks to tempt me, but I have discovered that I am 1359 impervious to temptation. I repeat that it is the long-standing policy of successive governments neither to confirm nor deny any allegations concerning the activities of the intelligence and security agencies. However, I reassure my noble friend that our bilateral relationship with our Pakistani colleagues is both warm and close. We engage at all levels and our multi-faceted relationship has been further strengthened by the initiatives launched by the Prime Minister in 2002 in the judicial, commercial and defence spheres. Resources from DfID to Pakistan have also been enhanced. My noble friend should have no worries at all about the nature of our warm relationship.

§ Lord Wallace of Saltaire
My Lords, will the Minister confirm that bugging an embassy is very clearly against Articles 22 and 27 of the Vienna convention? Will she also assure us that, if apparently well substantiated allegations emerged suggesting that the British Embassy in a friendly country had been bugged by that friendly country, the British Government would react with the same degree of calm as the Pakistani Government have reacted so far?

§ Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, in the light of my previous reply, I cannot answer either one way or the other. Nothing would be gained by engaging in a hypothetical debate on whether, if a particular action took place, it would be a breach of the Vienna convention. However, I reassure the noble Lord that the British Government always respond with propriety and moderation.

§ Lord Wright of Richmond
My Lords, will the Minister allow me to remind her of the quotation from Lewis Carroll's The Hunting of the Snark: What I tell you three times is true"?

§ Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, how well put.

Lord Campbell of Croy
My Lords, I declare an interest, having been born in Pakistan, in Quetta. If the allegations are true, are they not only a breach of international conventions, but an unfriendly act towards a friendly country?

§ Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, without any disrespect to the noble Lord, I say for the fourth time, notwithstanding what was said about saying something three times, which clearly does not work, that we have very respectful and good relations with our colleagues in Pakistan. My noble friend Lord Ahmed mentioned our joint efforts in relation to terrorism. We have warmed to the efforts made by the Pakistani administration.
1360 Nothing that I say detracts from that in any way. I would give the same answer notwithstanding from whence it came.

§ Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe
My Lords, will my noble friend ensure that our friends in the intelligence services act as efficiently and effectively as possible, and try to avoid leakage of this nature in the future?

§ Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, I could not possibly comment.

§ Lord Smith of Clifton
My Lords, will the Minister confirm that we have particularly well informed relations with Pakistan?

§ Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, I can confirm that we have very good, robust relations with Pakistan, and long may that be the case.

§ Lord Stoddart of Swindon
My Lords, does the Minister's Answer that governments never comment on matters relating to security mean that the security forces can act with impunity in breaching international conventions and, indeed, in so far as Members of Parliament and this House are concerned, in actually breaking the law?

§ Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, my Answer does not mean that. I cannot accept such a suggestion. The intelligence and security agencies each operate under a strict statutory framework. The agencies are overseen by Ministers and by independent commissioners who hold or have held high judicial office. There is also the independent Investigatory Powers Tribunal to whom anyone may complain if he or she feels aggrieved by something they believe an agency has done in relation to them or their property. Our arrangements are something about which we can be reasonably proud, and they are robust.

§ The Countess of Mar
My Lords, if Ministers are not allowed to say what the security services are for, to take up the second limb of the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Ahmed, how can ordinary British citizens with no connection with terrorism find out whether their lines of communication are being bugged?

§ Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, I have already said that there is the tribunal and there is accountability. We have the legislation passed by this House and another place. The security service operates under the statutory framework established by the Security Service Acts of 1989 and 1996. Your Lordships will know that the services are further regulated by rigorous ministerial oversight. I assure the noble Countess that all that is proper is being done and will continue to be done.

§ Lord Brooke of Sutton Mandeville
My Lords, does the Minister recall the exchange in one of the Buchan novels between Hannay and Leithen in which one says 1361 to the other, "Have you seen Sandy lately?" and the other says, "He's in Bombay keeping an eye on central Asia".

§ Baroness Scotland of Asthal
My Lords, I cannot comment.