HL Deb 27 June 2002 vol 636 cc1501-4

3.6 p.m.

Lord Astor of Hever

asked the Chairman of Committees:

Whether the medical emergency cover within the Parliamentary Estate is adequate.

The Chairman of Committees (Lord Tordoff)

My Lords, the House authorities keep the provision of medical cover constantly under review. Recent initiatives include the installation of automatic external defibrillators adjacent to this Chamber. Regrettably, in one case in December last year there was an unacceptable delay before an ambulance was called. However, I assure noble Lords that steps have been taken to ensure that such delays do not occur in future.

Lord Astor of Hever

My Lords, I thank the Chairman of Committees for that Answer. Is he really satisfied that emergency procedures inside and outside the House have been improved since the unacceptable delay that my noble friend Lady Blatch had to endure, in great pain, waiting for an ambulance? Is he concerned that parliamentarians and staff—there are up to 5,000 people working in the parliamentary estate at any one time—appear to have only basic emergency cover after 5 p.m. when the nurse knocks off?

The Chairman of Committees

My Lords, the emergency cover is precisely the same after 5 p.m. as it is before 5 p.m. The provision of the nurse is not for emergency cover. The point of emergency cover is to recover the patient, to resuscitate the patient and to get him or her to hospital as quickly as possible. In the case of the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, that did not happen. However, I emphasise that the delay was not with the ambulance service; it was internal. The telephone operator took a long time to pass the message through to St Thomas' Hospital, because they were checking on various things at great length. That is partly because there have been a number of spurious phone calls to the 3333 emergency number, so those concerned were making sure that this was a serious case. Instructions have now been given that when emergencies on 3333 originate from here, the first thing to do is make sure that an ambulance is on its way.

I can give the noble Lord a few more details about that case. The call to the central ambulance control was not logged until 7.56 p.m., although the original call here was made at 7.30 p.m. After that, the ambulance arrived at 8.11 p.m. and was with the noble Baroness, Lady Blatch, at 8.14 p.m. The ambulance service is in no way to blame for the delay that occurred on that occasion and we have taken steps to ensure that such a delay does not occur again.

Lord Walton of Detchant

My Lords, on a good many occasions over the past two years, I have been called upon to offer medical advice within this House—the last occasion being this morning. Sometimes I have been asked to do so in curious locations, including, once, in the ladies' toilet. Is it not reasonable to have nursing cover in the evenings after 5 p.m.? After all, so far as I am concerned—I am sure that ultimately this may apply to many other medical Peers—if the General Medical Council's regulations on revalidation are soon to be introduced, it is possible that I shall be precluded from giving such advice on the ground of age.

The Chairman of Committees

My Lords, if I may say so, they must be precluding people at a very early age. We anticipate that in the near future nursing care will be able to continue until 10 p.m. However, I emphasise that nursing care is not strictly part of the emergency service; it is for normal day-to-day, simple medical assistance.

Lord Roper

My Lords, all parts of the House will be relieved that a review of the procedures in the telephone exchange has taken place so that unacceptable delays of the kind that occurred previously will not be repeated. However, I should be grateful for an assurance that continuous training is being given in the use of the defibrillators which have been provided and that access to oxygen is now readily available, as I understand that problems have occurred in that respect in the past.

The Chairman of Committees

My Lords, it is true that early last year there was difficulty in accessing the oxygen supply. That has now been dealt with. But one must be clear that the administration of oxygen is not a simple, straightforward matter. Regular training is now given in the use of the medical equipment here. As I said, the defibrillators are outside the Chamber. Regrettably, there was an occasion when Lord Shore of Stepney collapsed in the Chamber, and the Doorkeepers administered the defibrillators to very good effect. Sadly, of course, Lord Shore died later in hospital. But we are convinced that that equipment is working well.

Lord Marsh

My Lords, we are all conscious of the fact that the Parliamentary Estate is not covered by the Offices, Shops and Railway Premises Act. Given the large number of people who are in this building at almost any given time, why cannot the estate have cover by analogy with such outside legislation?

The Chairman of Committees

My Lords, I am not sure that I know the answer to that. However, as I said, it is our belief that we are extremely well covered in relation to emergencies. Perhaps I may take the opportunity of welcoming the noble Lord, Lord Marsh, back to his place after his serious operation.

Lord Taylor of Blackburn

My Lords, does the Chairman of Committees agree that, instead of the nurse being employed until 10 o'clock, it would be far better if the House rose at 7 o'clock, thus dealing with the problem the other way round?

The Chairman of Committees

My Lords, I am sure that the nurse would be pleased to have an early evening. However, I do not believe that that is a matter for this debate; it is a matter for the report of the Leader of the House on the workings of the House.

Baroness Gardner of Parkes

My Lords, will the noble Lord explain his remark about oxygen being difficult to administer? All dentists are obliged to make oxygen available in their surgeries. Even the most untrained person is expected to be able to use it. I am able to quote instances when lives have been saved through oxygen being available to people who have suffered heart attacks. Can the noble Lord explain why he considers oxygen to be difficult to use? In addition, is he willing to have oxygen available in the same location as the defibrillators, if that is not already the case? In that way, both would be available at the same source and people would know exactly where to go for them.

The Chairman of Committees

My Lords, oxygen is available. I am saying only that I believe that it can be a little dangerous when handled by the untrained, or so I am informed. The noble Baroness looks at me sceptically, but what is new? That is my understanding, although I may be wrong. I have no medical training, but people other than the Doorkeepers are usually available. The Doorkeepers are now properly trained and oxygen is available. I simply suggest that ordinary Members of the House should not rush to the oxygen bottle and try to administer it because they might do more harm than good.

Baroness Masham of Ilton

My Lords, is the Chairman of Committees aware that the nurses' hours were cut by changing their finishing time from 6 p.m. to 5 p.m.? What was the reason for that? Is he aware that some people must be monitored for certain conditions and that, if the nursing service were available, that would prevent emergencies arising?

The Chairman of Committees

My Lords, I do not know why that change was made. However, I understand that a system is to be introduced whereby the nurses overlap and that someone will be on duty until 10 o'clock in the evening. I am not sure when that arrangement will begin, but that is my understanding.

Viscount Simon

My Lords, further to the observations and questions of the noble Baroness, Lady Gardner of Parkes, I know for a fact that the Chairman of Committees is aware that from time to time I have to use oxygen and that it is readily available. It is provided by the health workers in the Houses of Parliament. But is he aware that the bottle to which I have access needs to be replaced and that the occupational health workers are being very obstructive in replacing it?

The Chairman of Committees

My Lords, I am not sure whether my noble friend said "obstructive" or "constructive".

Noble Lords

Obstructive.

The Chairman of Committees

My Lords, I was not aware of that. If that is the case, I shall look into the matter and ensure that the obstruction is removed.