Traffic Measures in London (Hansard, 30 July 2002)

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, the Mayor of London, through Transport for London, has powers to regulate traffic. Traffic measures are sometimes discussed among other matters when the Mayor meets transport Ministers from time to time. Transport for London also discusses traffic proposals with the Highways Agency as part of normal liaison procedures. However, in general, there is no formal requirement for Transport for London or other local traffic authorities to notify, or seek consent from, the Government about proposed traffic measures except in a few cases surviving from the Road Traffic Regulation Act 1984 such as notification of the installation of a pedestrian crossing or consents to close roads for certain special events.

§ Lord Peyton of Yeovil
My Lords, that Answer does nothing to diminish my anxieties. I wonder whether the noble Lord could give us some idea as to how long the Government can realistically expect to stand aside from the impact of the Mayor's plans for London, both as regards their cost and their physical disturbance? Likewise, can they really continue to ignore the tissue of measures which the Mayor is taking currently, including even the rephasing of traffic lights, to exclude the motor car from London? I wonder whether the time has not come to grapple with this joker whose jokes may not be all that funny in the end.

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, I am sorry that my careful and factual response to a legitimate Question should cause the noble Lord, Lord Peyton, anxiety. He is in effect asking for the repeal of the Greater London Authority Act 1999. The Government have no intention of repealing that Act.

§ Lord Campbell-Savours
My Lords, would we remain detached in the event of gridlock?

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, what is the definition of "gridlock"? There has been gridlock. There was gridlock last week when 800 traffic signals went down. That is a matter for the Mayor and it should be a matter for the Mayor.

§ Lord Geddes
My Lords, does the Minister concur with the comments made to me recently by the chief planning officer of a major London borough that the present policy of the Mayor of London is quite deliberate; namely, to make the traffic conditions so appalling to soften up the motorist in particular for when the congestion charge is introduced? Will he also advise the House what policy Her Majesty's Government are taking regarding Members of your Lordships' House and of another place getting in to Parliament when the congestion charge is introduced?

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, Members of Parliament will quite rightly have to pay the 813 congestion charge like everyone else. There would be a public outcry if that were not the case. Of course I have heard the allegations about the motives behind the changes in traffic signal phasing and many other matters. However, those are not ministerial responsibilities.

§ Lord Addington
My Lords—

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords—

§ Lord Williams of Mostyn
My Lords, it is the turn of the Liberal Democrats.

§ Lord Addington
My Lords, does the Minister agree that all forms of devolved government must be allowed to do what their powers entitle them to do? The ultimate answer is for the electorate to remove them if they do not like what they are doing.

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, I agree entirely with what the noble Lord, Lord Addington, says. I have always thought that governments in power were centralisers and oppositions were always decentralisers. However, now we appear to have a centralising Opposition.

§ Lord Rotherwick
My Lords—

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords—

§ Lord Williams of Mostyn
My Lords, it has to be the turn of the noble Baroness, Lady Trumpington.

§ Baroness Trumpington
My Lords, I realise that I take my life in my hands when I address questions on this subject to the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh. However, does he take any interest in the safe passage of emergency vehicles through the present London traffic congestion?

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
Yes, my Lords. Road safety is one of the responsibilities of government. Of course we listen carefully to the police, the Ambulance Service and the fire brigade.

§ Lord Strathclyde
My Lords, I have listened to the answers of the noble Lord, Lord McIntosh of Haringey, with mounting incredulity. Is it really true that the Government have turned their back entirely on the problems of traffic congestion in London with all that that means for businesses, for people who live in London and for those who come into London in order to carry out business? Can the noble Lord think of any other capital city in Europe where the central government have no interest in what happens to traffic in the capital?

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, I cannot offhand but I am sure that there are other capital cities with decentralised arrangements. That is certainly the case in the United States and in many parts of the 814 world. Decentralisation means what it says. It means that we devolve responsibility to regional and local government. That is an entirely proper thing which I support and have always supported.

§ Lord Peston
My Lords, although I entirely accept that his answers are formally correct, does my noble friend believe on reflection that when the Mayor's crackpot scheme ends in tears, as it undoubtedly will, the Government will escape censure and that the public will accept—I speak from our side of the House—the formalistic answers that we have heard today? Surely the public will say that the Mayor was initially at fault but they will add that the Government ought to have done something about the matter.

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, if they do, they will be wrong.

§ Viscount Falkland
My Lords, does the Minister agree that the Government must have a view about the effects of the rephasing of traffic lights? Although it is pleasant to see pedestrians amiably wandering around at leisure there is nevertheless a great build-up of traffic, including buses and lorries, at traffic lights for considerable periods. Is it any surprise that cyclists are now going across red lights as a matter of self-preservation? They would rather risk doing that than die of asphyxiation.

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, I am rather shocked at those comments. It sounds to me as if the noble Viscount, Lord Falkland, is condoning breaking the law. I hope that he does not intend that. The phasing of traffic lights is a matter for the Mayor of London. I shall of course ensure that the views of noble Lords are communicated to Transport for London.

§ Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe
My Lords, my noble friend said that these issues are sometimes discussed when the Mayor meets transport Ministers. Can we look forward to some transparency and openness with regard to those exchanges so that at least we can try to move towards a resolution of the problems?

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, I shall communicate that view to Ministers in the Department for Transport who have contacts with the Mayor and Transport for London.

§ Lord Rotherwick
My Lords, are the Government happy with the handling of London's traffic by the Lord Mayor?

§ Lord McIntosh of Haringey
My Lords, the Lord Mayor is not responsible for traffic in London. If the noble Lord, Lord Rotherwick, meant the Mayor, various members of the Government have various views on those matters, but they are devolved.

§ Lord Greenway
My Lords—

§ Lord Williams of Mostyn
My Lords, unfortunately, we should move on.