HL Deb 17 July 2000 vol 615 cc679-703

(" . Local authorities shall promote the drawing up by employers of Green Transport Plans and stipulate that these are discussed at an early stage with employees and their representatives.").

The noble Lord said: Amendments Nos. 263A and 263B were originally written together and I believe that they hang together in a certain way. However, Amendment No. 263B adds a highly practical dimension in saying that, in the context of introducing either of the charges, local authorities should, promote the drawing up by employers of Green Transport Plans and stipulate that these are discussed at an early stage with employees and their representatives". In other words, the congestion charge and the workplace levy would be brought forward by firms in the context of green transport plans.

I do not believe that the right reverend Prelate who spoke earlier was totally wrong when he said that the effect of the new charges will be not only to provide a means of paying for public transport; they will change people's behaviour. It is obvious that that is what we are doing: through the price mechanism, we are changing people's behaviour. When, for example, one puts up the price of strawberries, the result is that fewer people eat strawberries. I do not believe that I need to tell anyone that that is how price mechanisms work. That was the contention in the preliminary discussion which led up to the White Paper.

Be that as it may, it is employees who are being called upon to change their behaviour. It is they who in many cases will pay the congestion charges and I suspect that, in one way or another, in many cases they will pay for the workplace levy as well.

I part company with the dire predictions of the Official Opposition but I believe that these two measures will come as a shock to many firms. I believe that trade union support for them, which we have been developing, will be a vital part of their reception. This type of issue is on the agenda of a trade union and sustainable development advisory committee, chaired jointly by Michael Meacher and John Edmonds.

I believe that it is fair to say that very little has happened so far with regard to green transport plans. There have been some notable exceptions; for example, the round of discussions in government departments and in the Civil Service, and all credit to them. However, a new stimulus is needed and a clause such as this could act as a vital catalyst if the issues are to be developed in a serious way. After all, the repercussions could involve the staggering of hours of work and the pooling of travel for some firms, and so on.

Terms and conditions of employment will be affected both directly and indirectly through the extra charges. Although the amendment does not attempt to prescribe in detail how the consultations in a firm should be carried out with employee representatives, I have no doubt that in many workplaces that will be the make or break factor as to whether the scheme is a success—as I very much hope that it will be—or a failure.

Finally, although in many respects the national line of the TUC and the CBI is largely supported, bolt sides need a push to find a better way of ensuring that these matters are discussed in the workplace. It cannot be left to people's common sense in the hope that they will work it out for themselves. Experience shows that that does not happen. People will not march down Whitehall demanding that the charges are introduced; nor do I expect the converse. We do not wish to be wise after the event. That is why I hope that the Minister will be able to give a sympathetic response. Perhaps this particular form of words can be improved upon, but I hope that the amendment's essential ingredients will be incorporated into the Bill. I beg to move.

9.30 p.m.

Lord Berkeley

My noble friend has given an excellent and comprehensive summary of the aims of the amendment to which I have put my name. I do not need to repeat what he has said, but I have one other point to make on individual taxation, which is very important in selling the concept to employees.

The issue is a matter for the Treasury, but it comes up in your Lordships' House quite often. I still believe that the tax system encourages people to use their cars. Many people are given company cars and, regardless of whether they are given free petrol, the perception is that it is more advantageous for most of them to drive to work than to buy a season ticket for the train or bus., for which they have to pay out of fully taxed income.

I hope that, as part of the new 10-year plan for transport, the Government will have the courage to look at this continuing anomaly in the tax situation relating to transport for individuals.

Baroness Thomas of Walliswood

I should like briefly to support the amendment. It has many merits, not least the interesting light that the experience of the noble Lord, Lord Lea of Crondall, in the trade union movement threw on his argument. When I was a member of Surrey County Council, we began a sort of green transport process, particularly in connection with a large development site. Heathrow airport has got rid of a good deal of its employee parking and introduced a number of bus services for employees. Those are two straws in the wind. Employers or managers of large companies are interested in the idea, because it can benefit them and enable them to get what they want, as well as bringing benefits to the local community. I hope that the Minister will give the amendment a fair wind.

Lord Dixon-Smith

I have a feeling that I should not speak in support of the principle of the amendment, but it follows on from amendments that we have discussed earlier in the Bill. It is a good idea. The noble Lord, Lord Lea of Crondall, mentioned discussions within government departments about the issue. Many thoroughly commercial enterprises already have such schemes. They should be encouraged in any way possible. I shall be amused and interested to see whether the Minister is as encouraging to his noble friends as he has been to us when we have advocated good schemes. I do not intend to launch a torpedo into the amendments by saying that, because I hope that the Minister will take them seriously and will do what he can to support them.

Lord Whitty

Without showing undue favouritism to my noble friend, I have some sympathy with the amendment. It is important for local authorities to encourage green transport plans among employers in their area and for employers to consult properly with their staff and unions in developing such plans. Local authorities are well placed to do that, so we support the underlying aim of the amendment. However—the noble Lord, Lord Dixon-Smith, will recognise these words—I have yet to be convinced that it is appropriate to include the amendment in primary legislation.

Local authorities are already being asked to promote travel plans through the local transport plan process. Existing LTP guidance asks local authorities to set out how they will encourage the widespread adoption of travel plans by employers, who will need to consult their work forces, and to consider setting targets for take-up and for modal shift. The extent to which local authorities include those aspects within their local plans will have clear implications for the bids which they put in under those plans.

In addition, our draft planning policy guidance, PPG13, on transport includes a system of transport assessment to encourage travel by sustainable modes to and from new developments. That means that developers may also be required to produce travel plans with their applications for planning permission. In turn, they will be encouraged to consult widely not only with local authorities but also with those who represent the staff.

I am less pessimistic than is my noble friend Lord Lea. I go round the country seeing some of those green transport plans and there is a lot of innovation and enthusiasm for them among employers and employees alike. We have highlighted that by producing several guides on travel plans which underline the importance of consulting employees and unions at the outset of the plan development. We have distributed those plans and the earlier guidance to local authorities and there was quite a good take-up to encourage good practice.

Therefore, I am at one with the aim of the amendment but I remain unconvinced that it should be on the face of the Bill. However, I hope that with those assurances my noble friend will not press the amendment.

Lord Lea of Crondall

I am grateful to my noble friend for his response. The key point about the amendment is not so much the promotion of green transport plans per se but is in the context of the introduction of either a congestion charge or a workplace levy.

I suggest that when those two measures are brought forward priority must be given to discussion with the workforce. That is best done in the context of green transport plans. I hope that the Minister will consider what I have said and I shall obviously want to read carefully what the Minister said. I hope it means that we may be able to produce an appropriate form of words for Report stage. Meanwhile, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 190 agreed to.

Schedule 12 [Road user charging and workplace parking levy: financial provisions]:

Lord Dixon-Smith moved Amendment No. 264: Page 219, line 10, at end insert— ("and includes the amount of any VAT charged on road user charges or workplace parking levies").

The noble Lord said: The noble Lord, Lord McIntosh of Haringey, will recognise immediately why this question was asked. He answered a question from the noble Lord, Lord Islwyn, as to whether the Government have any plans to introduce VAT on toll charges. The first purpose of tabling this amendment is to find out whether the workplace parking levy or congestion charges are tolls within the meaning of the Bill. But I suspect that when he replies the Minister will tell us that under the definitions in Euroland they must be so. I shall be interested in that point.

If that is so, when we introduce those charges we are not simply introducing a local charge or levy in order to support local schemes and produce local benefits. They are also producing a nice little 17.5 per cent supplement on behalf of the Treasury. Most people do not think initially that that is what is happening. It is extremely important that we should be quite clear that that is what the situation is.

A congestion charge of £1 per day, or whatever it may be, is not a congestion charge of £1 per day because you happen to be in that town and that is what the charge is. It is £1.17½ and the 17½p will go to the Treasury, although we say that the benefit should remain a local one.

I suspect that in his response the Minister will say that the amendment is not practical politics because VAT is VAT and belongs to Customs and Excise. That may well be the reality. However, if by a freak of good fortune the Minister can tell me that I am completely wrong in my presumptions, those charges will not be subject to VAT, and that therefore I need not concern myself, or that VAT will be payable, the Government will make arrangements to see that the effect on the local chargepayers of the VAT will be returned to the local transport authority, in both instances I shall be delighted. Dare I say that the public will be rather less concerned at what is going on? I shall not say that we would all go on our way rejoicing. I do not think we are in that situation. However, at least we would be in a better situation than the one in which I suspect we are. I suspect we are in one of those lovely situations where the taxpayer pays and nothing can be done about it. I beg to move.

Lord McIntosh of Haringey

I am not sure that I am necessary. The noble Lord, Lord Dixon-Smith, puts up his case and demolishes it straightaway. I do not think I need to intervene. Perhaps I shall.

Let us make clear the position on VAT. At present we have the advice of the Advocate General; that is, that VAT should be charged on tolls. The European Court will make its judgment on 12th September. As the noble Lord, Lord-Dixon Smith knows, because it was raised in this House, with four other countries concerned we have been strongly arguing the case against imposing VAT on road tolls.

We do not yet know the judgment of the court. However, it is the case that normally it is in line with the advice of the Advocate General. We will not know the position about road tolls and congestion charges until we hear the terms of the judgment. I refer not just to the effect of the judgment on road tolls but the way in which it is expressed and whether anything is said which guides us as to whether congestion charges will come under the same judgment. We shall have to consider carefully the text of the judgment of the European Court before we decide what has to be done in this country to implement it.

However, I can tell the noble Lord, Lord Dixon-Smith, that we agree that the revenue from charging schemes should be hypothecated to transport projects. The imposition of VAT, if it were to happen, should not reduce the funds available to authorities. We shall be working on the exact mechanism for that as schemes are developed. In other words, the Treasury will not take the 17.5 per cent; it will go back to local transport schemes. Bearing that in mind, the local authorities will make decisions about charging levels in the knowledge that if that is to be the case, VAT will have to be part of the charge.

The amendment also covers VAT charged on workplace parking. We do not expect workplace parking levies to be subject to VAT. If the noble Lord, Lord-Dixon Smith, wants to go away rejoicing, I am happy for him to do so.

Lord Swinfen

Before the Minister sits down, perhaps I may ask whether the local authorities will get back the whole of the amount or will the Treasury make an administration charge and keep some for themselves?

Lord McIntosh of Haringey

They will get back the whole amount.

Lord Dixon-Smith

I am genuinely grateful to the Minister. He has given a most helpful reply which, for once, sends me on my way rejoicing. If we had not tabled the amendment and I had not pressed the question, we would not have received his well-defined answer. That helps us all forward. Perhaps the Minister would like to have a word with me afterwards. I wonder whether we will have the benefit of the judgment of the European Court before we meet to consider the Report stage of the Bill, which I take it will be in early October, or might just be in the last day or two of September.

Lord McIntosh of Haringey

My understanding is that the court will deliver its judgment on 12th September.

Lord Dixon-Smith

Then when we have the benefit of the judgment, the Minister will understand if we find some way of persuading him to reveal what its consequences might be in relation to this Bill.

Lord McIntosh of Haringey

I was cautious to say that we will have to consider the judgment carefully. I cannot promise that we will have reached a firm conclusion as to what the judgment means and how we interpret it before we come to Report stage.

Lord Dixon-Smith

I am grateful to the Minister. I do not want to spoil what I can only regard as a happy occasion. But he will understand if we are anxious to receive the answer.

This has been a useful discussion, for which I am extremely grateful. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

9.45 p.m.

Lord Dixon-Smith moved Amendment No. 265: Page 221, line 34, leave out paragraph 9 and insert— ("9. The appropriate national authority may by regulation make provision for paragraph 8 to apply with the substitution for the number for the time being mentioned in sub-paragraph (5) of that paragraph of a number of years greater than ten.").

The noble Lord said: This is simply another of my consistent moves to try to increase the time for which money is available to local authorities when they have taken the initiative in raising it. The amendment provides that the number of years should be greater than 10, which is what the Bill states. I believe that is perfectly reasonable. But I suspect that the Minister, in his response, will tell me that, though the Government will produce a 10-year plan, 10 years is longer than they foresee it being needed. It will therefore all need to be reviewed before that time is up.

This is an important amendment. It is consistent with what we have been arguing elsewhere. I beg to move.

Lord Macdonald of Tradeston

I am grateful to the noble Lord for those words of explanation in support of his amendment. While I am not able to accept the amendment, it is clear that we are agreed that the hypothecation arrangements set out in Schedule 12 to the Bill are important.

Amendment No. 265 would provide that regulations under paragraph 9 of Schedule 12 could only provide for the extension of the guaranteed period of hypothecation beyond the 10-year period if the revenues raised were spent on improving local transport. The effect of the amendment would therefore be the indefinite hypothecation of the revenues raised for new charges for local transport spending.

The arrangements that we included in our Greater London Authority Act and have extended to this Bill, represent a breakthrough by guaranteeing hypothecation. We recognise that that is a crucial factor in the success and acceptability of each and every scheme. The Bill therefore provides that every penny of the net revenues raised from local authority charging or licensing schemes brought forward within 10 years of the commencement of this schedule will be retained locally and ring-fenced for transport spending for each scheme's initial period.

The expectation is that the initial period will be 10 years from the implementation of a scheme. But Schedule 12 also enables the appropriate national authority to guarantee the hypothecation of charging revenues for more than 10 years for individual schemes. That flexibility could be particularly valuable if the local authority wants to undertake a PFI deal and the private sector required a guarantee that a revenue stream would be available for more than 10 years.

The Bill allows for the arrangements for the retention and use of charging revenues to be reviewed in 10 years' time. That is for the simple reason that spending charging revenues on transport in perpetuity might not deliver value for money improvements in the medium to longer term once substantial improvements to local transport have been put in place. It may well be that the review recommends that 100 per cent hypothecation of charging revenues for transport spending should continue for all schemes for a further period. I can assure Members of the Committee that the Bill explicitly allows for hypothecation for transport spending to continue after the review, though clearly I cannot pre-empt the outcome of the review.

I hope therefore that the noble Lord will reconsider and agree not to press his amendment.

Lord Dixon-Smith

I am grateful to the Minister, who has once again given a helpful reply. He will be aware that I know from too much past experience that the funding of large-scale highway improvements often runs for 20 to 25 years, and sometimes even longer. So this is a very important consideration. As I said, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his response, which I shall study in Hansard with care. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Schedule 12 agreed to.

Clauses 191 and 192 agreed to.

Clause 193 [Information]:

Lord Dixon-Smith moved Amendment No. 266: Page 115, line 21, after ("subsection") insert ("(1), (2) or").

The noble Lord said: If I have interpreted it correctly, the Bill as drafted provides that information that has been obtained from another authority—or, indeed, the Government—in the course of performing functions is only protected from disclosure by the contractor to whom it has been disclosed by the charging or licensing authority in order to set up the scheme and enable it to work. We believe that there is a gap in that provision because there is always a problem with what one might call "commercially protected legislation". Its inadvertent release can have unforeseen and sometimes very damaging consequences for the business that willingly supplied such information in order to help matters move forward.

The purpose of this amendment is to expand the protection that presently exists against its release by a contractor to cover the Government, the local transport authority or anyone else who has the information and who might inadvertently release it. That is not an unreasonable request. Amendments Nos. 267, 273 and 274 are also included in this group. They are all more or less identical and bring us back to what the noble Lord, Lord Clinton-Davis, would call the common law provision. However, I do not apologise for advancing it. If information is released inadvertently and proves to be damaging, these amendments provide that compensation will be available to the person or business so damaged.

These are old-fashioned principles with which none of us has any difficulty and which I believe we all accept. I thought that we should table such amendments in order to be absolutely certain that in passing this legislation the situation is adequately protected. If it is not, the possibility of obtaining information which may well be essential to the creation of some of these schemes will be endangered. I know that the Minister would not wish such a situation to arise; indeed, I can see the look in his eyes. I beg to move.

Lord Macdonald of Tradeston

Once again, I am pleased to be in agreement with the noble Lord and his intentions, although I hope to persuade him that his concerns are already met. We envisage that the disclosure of information by public bodies may be essential for the fair and effective enforcement of a charging or licensing scheme; for example, the name and address of the registered keeper of a vehicle may need to be passed on to a charging authority by the Driver and Vehicle Licensing Agency.

If the charging or licensing authority contracts with a private company to carry out the enforcement of a scheme, the authority will need to be able to pass on such information to its contractor. Subsection (4) of Clause 193 makes clear the caveat that any information passed on in this way under subsection (3) may only be used for, or in connection with, the charging or licensing scheme.

Amendment No. 266 would extend the caveat in subsection (4) to subsections (1) and (2) also. However, the wording of those two subsections already makes clear that disclosure of information by public bodies or internally within a charging authority may only take place for, or in connection with, a charging or licensing scheme. I can therefore assure the noble Lord that his concern is already specifically catered for.

I also agree that where information is wrongly disclosed people should be able to claim compensation for any damage caused. However, this is already catered for under the common law through our existing judicial system to which anyone who feels that they have been caused damage in this way could resort. Proceedings under common law provide appropriate remedies for claimants against persons who have wrongly disclosed information.

I believe therefore that it is not necessary to add this safeguard to the primary legislation through these amendments. I hope that with that reassurance the noble Lord will agree to withdraw the amendment.

Lord Dixon-Smith

I am grateful for the Minister's helpful reply. I do not think that there is a great deal between us. I shall need to study carefully the Minister's comments. In these amendments, as in earlier amendments, one is dealing with a common law situation. However, resorting to the law can be expensive. That is an unfortunate fact of life. It may be necessary to resort to the law to decide what compensation should be paid. Once again we are creating a situation where the lawyers may have a ball. However, I am grateful for the Minister's helpful reply. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

[Amendment No. 267 not moved.]

Clause 193 agreed to.

Clauses 194 to 198 agreed to.

Schedule 13 [Amendments of Schedules 23 and 24 to Greater London Authority Act]:

[Amendments Nos. 268 to 274 not moved.]

Schedule 13 agreed to.

Clause 201 [Membership and chairing]:

Lord Swinfen moved Amendment No. 275: Page 119, line 14, at end insert (", and (c) at least one person representative of disabled people").

The noble Lord said: In moving Amendment No. 275, I wish to speak also to Amendment No. 284, which stands in my name and with which it is grouped. Amendment No. 276 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, is also in the same group.

The purpose of Amendment No. 275 is to require that at least one authority member represents the needs of disabled people. Amendment No. 284 requires that disabled people be consulted by the authority in drawing up its strategies.

With such an important and new authoritative body as the Strategic Rail Authority promises to be, it is essential that it reflects the interests of all existing and potential passengers. Few would disagree that it must therefore cover the needs of those with disabilities. It is therefore excellent that included in the functions of the authority is the task of having regard to the needs of disabled people, as mentioned in Clause 206(3).

It might, however, be argued that, by chance, someone with a particular interest in disability will be among those appointed to the authority and that this particular function can be informed and overseen by that person. This may be the case but the idea has three serious drawbacks. First, I argue that the interests and needs of people with disabilities are complex and are not always well understood by those with only a casual knowledge of disability. For that reason we need an expert in the authority to whom everyone—other members of the authority and the public at large—can refer.

Secondly, where meeting the needs of disabled people is left to chance, where no one has a specific responsibility to attend to those needs, it is often the sad case that those needs are overlooked. Correcting the omission later, which the Disability Discrimination Act will in due course require, will then involve a higher cost than would otherwise have been the case.

Thirdly, in so many organisations we frequently see progress for disabled people made by a particular individual and that progress stop—or even go into reverse—when the individual moves on to another appointment. Such stop/go progress can only be avoided by appointing a specific individual to the authority with the responsibility of having regard to the interests of people with disabilities. Such an appointment has the overwhelming benefit of institutionalising those interests.

I would also argue that the number of disabled people is such—some estimates suggest that 6 million people in this country have impaired mobility—that this important function needs to be the specific responsibility of a particular member of the authority. If that were to be the case, as the amendment proposes, we would ensure that the functions spelt out in Clause 206(3) are effectively, efficiently and economically performed. I beg to move.

10 p.m.

Lord Berkeley

In speaking to my Amendment No. 276 I shall refer briefly to Amendments Nos. 275 and 284, to which the noble Lord, Lord Swinfen, has spoken. I believe that my noble friend has already beaten us to it because on 13th April he appointed seven members to the board of the Strategic Rail Authority, one of whom has great experience of dealing with travel for the disabled and one of whom "will represent passenger interests". This is greatly welcome. My amendment and the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Swinfen, seek to put this on a statutory footing. I certainly welcome what my noble friend has done and I hope that it is bearing fruit.

In the interests of equity—and here I declare an interest as chairman of the Rail Freight Group and, to repeat what I have said previously in Committee, an adviser to Adtran; perhaps I should add that my wife works for the Strategic Rail Authority which, I think, technically is the British Railways Board—it would be reasonable to seek one person to be appointed to the Strategic Rail Authority who has experience of the needs of rail freight. In my view, if it is good for passengers, it is good for freight.

It is very important that there should be someone on the authority who has experience of working in a local transport authority. We are aiming to produce a Bill for integrated transport policies and, as the Committee discussed several days ago, local transport plans are very important. I think they have some way to go before they reach a standard which will be uniformly acceptable and it would be very useful to have someone on the board with experience of local transport planning, local government transport policy development and so on.

I do not feel strongly about whether my noble friend considers it appropriate to place this requirement on the face of the Bill. But if has he appointed someone to represent the interests of rail passengers and someone to represent the interests of the disabled, it would be equitable if he appointed someone to represent the interests of rail freight and another person from a local transport authority.

Lord Addington

Perhaps I may speak briefly. My name appears alongside the name of the noble Lord, Lord Swinfen, on Amendments Nos. 274 and 275. The noble Lord, Lord Swinfen, put the matter clearly when he said that the amendment would institutionalise responsibility for the disabled. We know that if one takes one's eye off the ball for any amount of time one can easily make a mistake. The classic example is where escalators are put in which suit certain types of disabled people but do not suit others. We go on from there. One has to keep constantly vigilant to make sure that this does not happen.

The noble Lord was right when he said that because one has someone initially in place who knows about these matters and he is not there, it is assumed that the matters are dealt with and checked. People make mistakes like that. I know there will be an argument against the idea of listing any one particular person. But unless we get strong reassurances that people will constantly keep vigilant there is a grave danger that certain areas of good practice may ultimately be eroded by time.

Baroness Darcy de Knayth

I can make an even briefer speech in support of the amendments. My name never did get on the amendment because I was too slow off the mark. I should like to support what both noble Lords have said on Amendments Nos. 275 and 284, particularly the part reinforced by the noble Lord, Lord Addington.

Earl Attlee

I congratulate my noble friend Lord Swinfen on introducing his self-evidently desirable amendment. We have heard many helpful comments, particularly about the need for constant pressure for good practice. I hope that the Minister will be helpful to us on the amendment.

Lord Whitty

We entirely sympathise with the objectives of the amendment. My problem is that we do not wish to see the Strategic Rail Authority, or other authorities within the transport areas, being represented in the sense that the amendments of the noble Lord, Lord Swinfen, and of my noble friend Lord Berkeley would imply. We expect to see members with experience of exactly the kind of areas that have been referred to—disabled people, rail freight, local government and so on. But in practice members of the board will often wear several hats and not, as the amendment would imply, represent any one particular organisation or group. To put these requirements in the amendments on the face of the Bill would cut across the aim of having an overall representative body. We are concerned at the under-representation of women, ethnic minorities and disabled people in relation to public appointments as a whole and to transport appointments in particular. Those considerations will be taken into account when choosing members.

Amendment No. 284 would require the SRA to consult representatives of disabled people before formulating a strategy and from time to time as part of keeping a strategy under review. Clearly, it would be sensible for the SRA to consult and to do so taking into account the views of those organisations representing disabled people. But, as we have argued before, it is not necessary, or indeed desirable, to put on the face of the Bill long lists of organisations to be consulted. The list would grow and some organisations will always be omitted in error.

However, I can meet the noble Lord to some extent. The SRA will need to consult many organisations about many matters. I am happy to give an assurance that in the directions that we give to the SRA under Clause 206 and the guidance we give to the SRA we include general guidance on consultation with the Disabled Persons' Transport Advisory Committee—DPTAC. That will be clear in the guidance. It will achieve the objectives intended by Amendment No. 284. With those reassurances to both the noble Lords, Lord Swinfen and Lord Addington, that these procedures will be followed, I hope that the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

Baroness Thomas of Walliswood

Before the various Members of the Committee who have spoken to the amendments tell us what they are going to do with them, as it were, I wonder whether the noble Lord could come back to the part of Amendment No. 276 which refers to the need to have someone on the SRA with experience of local government. I thought that the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, was a very good one. Elsewhere in the Bill we are encouraging local government to co-operate in various ways—ticketing is just one—with the rail services.

My experience is that it is quite difficult for local government to talk to the railway industry. The two bodies are so different, their approach to life is so different and the way they are constituted is so different that misunderstandings can be caused. The suggestions that there should be someone with experience, or that in appointing people the Government might give weight to the fact that one of the candidates had experience, in local government are sensible.

Lord Whitty

I said that we would expect membership of the board to include, among the other areas covered by the amendment of my noble friend Lord Berkeley and those covered by the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Swinfen, members who have experience of local government. What I was objecting to was the representative nature implied by the amendments. Certainly, we would want people who had experience of that kind and indeed experience of disabled people and their needs.

Lord Swinfen

It is not my intention to press the amendment today. I shall read with care what the Minister has said. However, I am not sure that I agree with him. The fact that a member of the board may be representative of a particular group does not mean to say that he cannot take an intelligent and wise interest in other matters that come before the board. The noble Lord has only to look at himself and bear in mind the wide range of matters with which he himself deals in this House. The same could be said of nearly every Member of this House. They have their strong points, but that does not mean to say that they do not take an interest in everything else that goes on, or at any rate in a wide range of what goes on, and deal with those matters intelligently and sensibly. I hope that the noble Lord will take on board what I have said and that he will consider this matter further before we reach the next stage. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

[Amendment No. 276 not moved.]

Clause 201 agreed to.

Clauses 202 and 203 agreed to.

Schedule 14 [Strategic Rail Authority]:

Earl Attlee moved Amendment No. 277: Page 232, line 3, at end insert— ("( ) Full details of staff numbers shall be published in an annual return.").

The noble Earl said: In moving this amendment it may be convenient if I speak also to Amendments Nos. 278, 279, 280, 281 and 281A. We are concerned that both the SRA and the office of rail regulator are planning considerable increases in staffing and resources. Those increases need proper scrutiny to ensure that the costs of regulation do not increase to a point where they divert resources away from running the railway system. Clearly, the more staff the SRA employs the more it suggests that it intends to take a role in the day-to-day running of the railway industry rather than follow a more strategic remit.

According to the DETR annual report, the SRA plans to increase its staff from 126 to 237. While it is taking on some more responsibilities, an increase of almost 100 per cent since 1998 needs close examination and continued scrutiny to ensure that this rise is not intended to continue inexorably. The rail regulator is also planning an increase in staff from 130 to 180. We would be concerned if that increase were to continue in the same way.

I turn to Amendment No. 278. Examination of the schedule provides an opportunity to explore the funding of the SRA. The precise nature of the funding provision of the SRA remains vague. As Keith Hill said at the Committee stage in another place: The fine details of the SRA's financing structure are still being developed".—[Official Report, Commons Standing Committee E, 28/3/00; col. 1144.] It is now time that these fine details were resolved.

One of the key advantages of privatising the railway industry was that it was taken out of the uncertainties of the public sector spending round and it was allowed to plan for the long term. The SRA, and therefore the railway industry, will not have that certainty unless a long-term commitment is made by the Government to provide adequate funding. The Government are now planning public finances on a three-year rolling basis. It is therefore not unreasonable that the SRA should have the same certainty. A stable framework for long-term future funding is vital for the railways when most projects last for several years.

On privatisation, a long-term programme of subsidy to the railways was established and written into the franchise agreements. This is now under threat. It is clear that the Treasury is going to take a close interest in the funding of the SRA and, as currently drafted, the SRA will have to go to the Treasury for every separate project, having to make the case for extra borrowing approval. That cannot be satisfactory. It will go against the interests of the train operators, Railtrack and passengers if the SRA ends up as a new version of British Rail, dominated by short-term planning and dependent on the vagaries of the public sector spending round. This was the disease that was cured by the 1993 Act.

Perhaps I may turn to Amendments Nos. 279 and 280. These follow on from our general concerns about SRA funding, but focus on its borrowing limits. The amendment is designed to allow Ministers to explain more clearly the funding arrangements for the SRA. The SRA appears to have four methods of funding: grants from the Government; loans from the Government; borrowing; and income from franchises. Ministers have set a borrowing limit of £3 billion, but it is unclear whether that includes the £1 billion inherited from BR. Furthermore, it is unclear what limits will be put on spending and in what circumstances the SRA will be able to borrow instead of using its grant funding. It is important that the Government clarify exactly what will be the balance between different sources of funding and the role of the Secretary of State in determining that balance.

During his replies in Committee in another place, the Minister, at col. 1158, was unable to give further details of how this would work, saying that the Government could not, anticipate those decisions [of the SRA] in any further detail."—[Official Report, Commons, Standing Committee E, 28/3/00; col. 1158.] At that point we said that we would return to this issue. Considerable sums of taxpayers' money are involved here. It is entirely appropriate that the travelling public should know how the SRA is to operate and spend its money. We hope that the Minister will now be able to give the Committee further details of the operation of the SRA.

Paragraph 16 of Schedule 14 obliges the Secretary of State to specify rules and principles according to which the Strategic Rail Authority must exercise its functions in relation to financial and employment matters. Amendment No. 281 would remove that obligation. The authority ought to be able to make its own financial and employment rules. It is an unwarranted interference on the part of the Secretary of State to dictate to the authority on such issues. It is another example of the Government's urge to control everything in sight.

I turn now to Amendment No. 281A. Part III of Schedule 14 provides that the Secretary of State shall prepare a financial framework for the SRA. My amendment would reduce his role to that of merely approving it. I beg to move.

10.15 p.m.

Lord Berkeley

I should like to comment briefly on the amendment tabled by the noble Earl, Lord Attlee, in respect of the staff numbers of the rail regulator. I shall not comment on the SRA. If the rail regulator believes that he needs extra staff, as was suggested by the noble Earl, I believe that that is more than justified. The regulator is now faced with making periodic reviews of Railtrack's access charges. Railtrack is alleged to be £4 billion over budget on the West Coast main line on a £2 billion base cost. Furthermore, the regulator is still trying to secure from Railtrack the production of a register of assets. It seems not to know what it owns, how big are the tunnels and how heavy are the bridges. The regulator has a great deal to do to catch up which, in my view, should have been done many years ago, at the start of privatisation.

I would certainly support any extra staff or funding that the regulator felt that he needed. I also think that the industry needs this.

Lord Whiny

The noble Earl, Lord Attlee, is slightly inconsistent in his approach. On the one hand he wishes us to specify absolute control over the number of staff for the SRA and in another breath he says that the Secretary of State should not interfere with the financing of the SRA and its decisions.

Perhaps I may look at the staffing issue first. As my noble friend Lord Berkeley has said, we are giving the SRA a significant additional role and we expect it to be able to assess with the rail regulator the requirements for the staffing of those bodies. That means that the authority will need to assess how many staff it needs to carry out its duties. We have given it the power under the Bill to do so, and we should not disturb that.

So far as concerns Amendment No. 278, the noble Earl suggests that he is trying give some civility of framework for the SRA. In fact, the time horizon for the authority will be considerably longer than the three years suggested by the noble Earl. My noble friend Lord Macdonald will soon be publishing the 10-year plan for transport which will provide the overall planning framework for the railways and other transport modes. Within this broad structure, the authority's three-year budgets will be set, along with three-year budgets for other DETR spending programmes in future spending rounds. Plans for replacement of the franchises, for example, will look to a 20-year time-scale. Each franchise will include commitments by the SRA to pay subsidy or by the franchisee to make premium payments to the SRA over the whole lifetime of the franchise. Each franchise will be signed off by Ministers and, as part of that signing off, will need to give the authority appropriate assurances about funding to cover franchise commitments. Therefore, the long term is clearly catered for and Amendment No. 278 is unnecessary.

The effect of Amendments Nos. 279 and 280 would be to remove the borrowing limits for the authority. The main way in which the authority will receive its funds is through grant-in-aid from the Secretary of State. Nevertheless, the authority may need to borrow and that is why we have given the limit to such borrowing. There is no magic about the £3 billion figure, there are no secret calculations to show that that is what the authority will be borrowing. Quite simply, the £3 billion relates to the existing borrowing limit for the British Rail Board, one of the bodies that will be wound up into the authority. It seems sensible for that limit, which as the noble Earl implied is not currently exercised to its full degree but remains on the statute book, to be retained and carried forward into the SRA. We want the authority to have the flexibility to borrow if necessary.

Amendment No. 281 would remove the requirement for the Secretary of State to prepare a financial framework and Amendment No. 281A would make the Secretary of State's role simply one of approval rather than engagement in the preparing of it. Neither amendment would be helpful. Some sort of financial framework is needed to achieve this, and it is not sufficient assurance in terms of responsibilities to Parliament and probity of public finance for the Secretary of State, who is responsible for the SRA, simply to approve the framework by a rubber stamp. Therefore, I do not believe that the amendments are helpful, and in some cases the objective of stability of funding would not be better achieved by the noble Earl's amendments as distinct from what is already on the face of the Bill. Therefore, I hope that the noble Earl will not pursue them.

Earl Attlee

I thank the Minister for his reply. He mentioned the 10-year transport spending plan. Will that be set in stone? What will happen if the economy suffers a setback, tax revenues are reduced and savings then have to be found?

Lord Whitty

The noble Earl echoes questions that have been put to his leader in another place about tax guarantees and other unwise commitments previously made by the Tory leadership.

So far as concerns the 10-year plan, the resources will be committed. Clearly, there will be some flexibility in the application of those resources as transport modes and priorities change. But the resources will be announced by my noble friend and they will be committed. The SRA will have its appropriate share of those resources.

Earl Attlee

I thank the Minister for his reply and beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

[Amendments Nos. 278 to 281A not moved.]

Schedule 14 agreed to.

Clause 204 [Purposes]:

Lord Beaumont of Whitley moved Amendment No. 282: Page 120, line 10, at end insert (", and (d) to oversee the specification of rail services in metropolitan areas, responsibility for which it shall delegate to the appropriate Passenger Transport Executive, or in the case of Greater London, Transport for London").

The noble Lord said: This amendment would add to the purposes of the appropriate authority. Throughout the passage of the Bill, we have argued sometimes and agreed often about the necessary level of devolution. My previous amendment today sought to lift that from local to regional level. The amendment gives specific responsibility to the metropolitan areas, so that they may have their own say at a lower level of democratic responsibility than the rest of the clause covers. I beg to move.

Earl Attlee

Under Clause 244(2), the directions and guidance given by the Secretary of State will override the requirements of passenger transport executives in relation to franchises. The Government should not interfere with the legitimate requirements of PTEs, which have the local knowledge necessary to ensure that franchises are properly specified. It is no business of the Government to give directions or guidance that conflict with the local expression of needs.

10.30 p.m.

Lord Macdonald of Tradeston

The amendments relate to the rights, powers and duties of passenger transport executives, which have wide powers under Section 34 of the Railways Act 1993. In respect of each passenger service in their area, they will be able to give notice to the SRA specifying the level and quality of services needed to meet public requirements in their areas.

Section 34 provides that the SRA will need to ensure that the level and quality of services—including fares—specified by the PTE are included in the specification. PTEs can be a co-signatory with the SRA to any franchise agreement in respect of such services, which gives them a unique and prominent role in franchising.

We do not need to modify the executives' powers to specify services in their areas and the Bill does not do so. However, local transport needs may have, from time to time, to be balanced against the broader national picture. I hope the Committee accepts our general view, which is entirely consistent with the policy to create a new strategic framework, that if there is a conflict between local and strategic considerations, the latter should prevail.

That brings me to the detail of these amendments. Amendment No. 282 provides for the SRA to delegate responsibility for specifying rail services in metropolitan areas to the appropriate PTE or, in the case of London, to Transport for London. However, the SRA would continue to oversee the process. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Beaumont of Whitley, will forgive my saying that the words "oversee" and "delegate" are somewhat ambiguous. They might be taken to describe the current arrangement: the PTEs specify what is required but the SRA oversees the process in terms of its wider implications.

However, I suspect that the noble Lord has something a little more radical in mind; namely, a reduction in the ability of the SRA to intervene in the specifications made by the PTEs. Amendment No. 361 would have a similar effect and remove the requirement for the SRA to disregard PTE specifications which were contrary to directions and guidance given by the Secretary of State or (for Scotland) Scottish Ministers. As I hope I have explained, I do not believe that we should go that far. The SRA would be able to set aside the PTE's specification if, but only if, to accept it would be contrary to the guidance given by the Secretary of State or Scottish Ministers, or it would have an adverse effect on passenger or goods services, or it would cost the SRA money. The SRA might still accept the PTE specification even if it would have an adverse effect on passenger or goods services or add to SRA costs. In this respect the SRA will have discretion.

In the event of a conflict between local and national demands there is an opportunity under the dispute resolution provisions in the 1993 Act for the Secretary of State, who is ultimately accountable to Parliament for local and national railway services, to determine where the balance lies. We believe that that makes the balance between local and national interests just right.

The noble Lord's amendment also contains provisions in respect of London where the position is somewhat different. Transport for London will not have powers equivalent to the PTEs to specify services to be provided under franchises. On the other hand, the Mayor has power to issue directions and guidance to the SRA in relation to rail services in London which the PTEs do not have.

Without going into unnecessary detail, train services within London are so interwoven with regional and national services that a separate power for TfL to specify local services would be inappropriate. On the other hand, the Mayor will have a much broader influence through his directions and guidance in which he will be able to reflect the contribution that railways can make to his broader responsibilities for the economic and social well-being of London. That careful distinction would be undermined by the amendment, which would give the Mayor detailed powers to specify services alongside his broader powers of direction and guidance. We believe that that would tip the balance too far in the direction of local over national interests in respect of what is the heart of the national rail network.

I turn to Amendment No. 362, which affects the dispute resolution provisions that I mentioned earlier. If any dispute arises between the SRA and PTE in relation to a franchise agreement, or a proposal for such an agreement, either party may refer the dispute to the Secretary of State for determination under Section 34(17). The Secretary of State will be able to consider the arguments and give to the PTE or the authority such directions as he considers fit. That may include a requirement under Section 34(19) for the authority or PTE to enter into a franchise agreement on such terms as the Secretary of State decides.

Amendment No. 362 is not desirable because it would remove a helpful new provision which was added in Committee in another place. This provision clarifies that any disagreement between the PTEs and the SRA as to what should be specified in a franchise agreement will be a dispute for the purposes of Section 34(17) and that the Secretary of State will be able to resolve it as he sees fit. The clarification was inserted in the Bill following representations made by the PTEs that Section 34 of the Railways Act does not make sufficiently clear that the Secretary of State can direct the SRA regarding what should go in the franchise agreement.

I have no doubt that the authority and PTEs will continue to work together in the current franchise replacement negotiations to achieve a franchise settlement which reflects both local and national needs. The directions and guidance to the SRA by both the Secretary of State and the Scottish Ministers will be published and the PTEs will be able to take account of them in drawing up their statements. Therefore I do not expect that in practice conflict will arise between those statements and the directions and guidance. But Clause 244 ensures that in the unlikely event of an irreconcilable dispute between the authority and a PTE regarding a franchise specification, the Secretary of State can intervene.

I hope that in the light of those explanations the noble Lord will withdraw the amendment.

Lord Beaumont of Whitley

The burden of that answer appears to be that mother knows best, but I am not sure that mother always does know best. Nor am I sure that I agree with the main idea put forward— that in a clash between the overall strategic national plan and the local plan the strategic national plan should prevail.

I take account of what the Minister said about the wording of my amendment and I shall re-examine the London situation. I understand that it is more complex than I had presumed when I tabled the amendment. However, unlike the other amendments standing in my name today, I shall probably bring this one back at a later stage. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Baroness Thomas of Walliswood moved Amendment No. 283: Page 120, line 10, at end insert— ("(d) to identify unmet needs for railway services; and (e) to expand the railway network where appropriate").

The noble Baroness said: The amendment adds two more purposes to those of the SRA: first, that of identifying the unmet needs for railway services and, secondly, the expansion of the network appropriately. It does that by adding two paragraphs to Clause 204(3).

Merely satisfying the existing need will not be sufficient for the railway to play its part in an integrated transport system which is designed to be sustainable and to reduce traffic on the roads. But nor is the simple determination to grow the service any good unless there is a similar determination to expand the network to match the services. Arguably, some of the railway's greatest problems, from delays to overcrowding, since privatisation stem from that simplistic approach.

These are modest proposals. The network is to be expanded appropriately; that is, in the light of measured need. I am not suggesting expansion for the sake of expansion. Furthermore, we are talking about the need for all railway services, not merely passenger services. Therefore, the requirement from the freight industry must also be addressed and responded to appropriately. I beg to move.

Lord Berkeley

I support the amendment. The purpose of the integrated transport policy is to encourage people to use public transport. There is much evidence that a large proportion of the population has never been on a train. I had a horrible experience when I worked for Eurotunnel and ran a tourist attraction. I had to encourage people to come to look at it and we used to have about 300,000 visitors a year, including many school groups. We had a couple of old passenger coaches in which we had education work. Day after day, people turned up and asked, "What's that?". We said, "It's a railway train". Many people in this country do not know what a railway train is or how to use it. To the uninitiated, it is pretty frightening.

I shall be moving amendments later so I shall not bore the Committee now by speaking about them twice. However, we must make the railway system simple and attractive for people. I believe that the intention, to identify unmet needs for railway services", alongside, it is hoped, a provision relating to buses, is very important if we are to attract large numbers of the population who have cars and intend to use them. We must try to wean them off their cars and on to public transport.

Lord Macdonald of Tradeston

The amendment seeks to add two more to the fundamental purposes of the Strategic Rail Authority; that is, that the authority should identify unmet needs for railway services and that it should be able to expand the network where appropriate. The Committee will not be surprised to learn that we consider the amendment to be unnecessary. One of the three high-level purposes of the SRA is already, to secure the development of the railway network". For the record, I can assure the Committee categorically that that includes examining the possible expansion of the railway network and the need for new network to meet demand where appropriate.

I can also assure the Committee that we have carried through that high-level purpose to the basic level of giving the authority the powers that it needs to do the job. As can be seen in Clause 210, it will have very wide funding powers to encourage, promote and, where necessary, fund the development of the network. Where necessary, the authority can even go so far as to promote a Bill in Parliament to facilitate growth. Therefore, if a private Act is needed, it can help or co-ordinate that. The authority can also go to the rail regulator and request that he directs facility owners to enhance facilities or provide new facilities. Therefore, it could be well within this power to request a new station or a new stretch of track.

Therefore, the Committee can rest assured on the legal framework. However, I suspect that, as usual, the noble Baronesses in whose names the amendment stands are being more subtle than simply considering the legal framework. These reassurances were given in another place and they want to know more of the Government's and the SRA's intention.

Some cogent and relevant points were made in another place. With regard to the balance between rural and urban needs, concern was expressed that the congested urban centres should not receive all the investment. It was pointed out that there was a need to look at transport in the round to see whether re-openings of lines would make sense. There was the possible need for new stations and the needs of commuters, as well as those of long-distance travellers.

We accept that those are all strategic issues relating to what we want from a railway network, how best it can meet the needs of the community, of changing demand and of settlement patterns, and how the network should be structured and taken forward. Local problems were also brought forward in another place. However, a much wider point was made: we must get right the quality of service in order to encourage people to move from their cars and on to the network.

All that requires a strategic examination of the network, which the SRA will bring. It needs a champion who can look at the needs of local areas and relate them to the overall network and to the overall problems and start to address them with solutions. Some solutions are already in place; for example, the franchise replacement process, which I hope will deliver substantial new investment.

The SRA's strategic plan produced under Clause 205 will address network priorities to enable growth, although clearly it will be for local authorities to consider more local schemes. The shadow SRA has already commissioned studies to consider the need for new infrastructure. The South Trans Pennine Integrated Transport Study, which involves the shadow SRA, Railtrack and the local authorities, will consider the case for restoring the Matlock to Buxton line as part of a core east to west route from Derby to Manchester.

The shadow SRA is also encouraging rail passenger partnership fund bids for the funding of new facilities or re-openings where they meet the published planning criteria. One example is an Edinburgh cross-rail scheme, which involves the reinstatement of a short section of the former Waverley route to serve two new park-and-ride stations.

I assure the Committee that these possibilities and any concrete proposals will be considered seriously. Where they are justified, we shall ensure that the mechanisms are in place to ensure that they can take place. I hope that with those reassurances the noble Baroness will feel able to withdraw her amendment.

Baroness Thomas of Walliswood

I thank the Minister for his detailed and reassuring response. I shall read it with great interest. The next stage in the progress of the Bill is so far distant that it is impossible to think about what anybody will do then, but it is unlikely that I shall bring the amendment back. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 204 agreed to.

Clause 205 [Strategies]:

[Amendment No. 284 not moved.]

10.45 p.m.

Lord Berkeley moved Amendment No. 285: Page 120, line 26, leave out from beginning to first ("by") in line 28 and insert— ("The Authority shall formulate a strategy for securing the provision of services in various parts of Great Britain for the carriage of passengers and freight").

The noble Lord said: I shall speak also to Amendment No. 427. I thank my noble friend the Minister for responding today to a question that he was, quite reasonably, unable to answer on the final amendment in Grand Committee. He has confirmed that if Eurostar or EWS cease to operate cross-Channel services, the assets will be ring-fenced. I am most grateful to him for that helpful information.

The amendment would add a regional dimension to the duties of the SRA. It is a consequence of the intention in the Bill to withdraw Section 40 of the Channel Tunnel Act 1987. My Amendment No. 427 was designed to keep that section in, but I was just trying to have my chicken and eggs in the same thing—or whatever the right expression is.

Noble Lords

Have your cake and eat it.

Lord Berkeley

To have my cake and eat it. Thank you very much.

The history of regional services to the Channel Tunnel is rather sad. Some 15 years ago, both Houses had to fight very hard for the Government to accept any obligation to consider the regional aspects and encourage passenger train services from the regions. That is how Section 40 of the Act came in.

Regional interests have pressed the Government to update that. I was disappointed by the latest study, which came from the consultants, Arthur D. Little. It said that there were not enough passengers to justify a regional service, even from Birmingham or Manchester, because the service was too infrequent. It did not look at the original idea of splitting the trains in two, so that we could have double the number of trains but still maintain safety through the Channel Tunnel. It did not look at running domestic passengers on international trains, which many people, even in the security service, say would be possible. It then said that there was no economic case. I do not find that surprising, given what I have just said, together with a load of other items with which I shall not bore the Committee.

It is true that the Channel Tunnel trains are expensive. Maybe there is not an economic case, but there is no economic case for many of the passenger franchises in this country today. They would not survive without subsidy. The inter-city routes tend to make money, but many of the others do not. If it is acceptable to subsidise most passenger services in this country, we should at least consider making a similar arrangement for regional Eurostar services.

My aim in the amendment was to get the SRA to pick up an idea that successive governments have failed to take forward, to the detriment of the regions.

I hope that the SRA will pick up the idea and see what can be done to try to make the services work, at least in the medium term. I beg to move.

Baroness Thomas of Walliswood

I certainly support the objectives of the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley. Would it not be wonderful to board a train, as one used to be able to do on the north coast of France, and get into a carriage marked "Dover, Paris, Rome" and just be moved around the system so that you started the journey in Manchester and ended it in Rome? Such long journeys, particularly for tourism purposes, would bring quite different categories of passengers back onto the railways.

That is a rather frivolous response to a serious amendment but nevertheless, it has an extremely attractive and important aspect to it.

Lord Macdonald of Tradeston

I have some sympathy with the amendment's intention in relation to Channel Tunnel services, even if I do not accept that the provision should be added to the Bill. It is right that the SRA should have a strategy which would best serve rail travellers and freight operators seeking to get to the Channel Tunnel from beyond London. We have recognised that by explicitly providing for the authority to be under a duty to prepare such a strategy.

Considerable thought is being given to the best resolution of the regional Eurostar question. The Department of the Environment, Transport and the Regions commissioned the Arthur D Little report, which was released in February. The British Railways Board is currently exercising its functions under Section 40 of the Channel Tunnel Act 1987 to prepare a plan stating the measures which should be taken for Eurostar services serving various parts of the UK and it may take account of the ADL report in its considerations. The SRA will then have a duty to prepare a strategy under Clause 205(4).

We want to give the authority the flexibility to consider appropriate ways of meeting changing demands for cross-Channel travel. It may be that it will conclude in accordance with its Clause 205(4) duty as currently formulated that direct regional Eurostar services or an additional freight link should be provided. But it may also include considering how regional passengers and freight operators could benefit from better integration of domestic and international services. Indeed, we are encouraging domestic train operators and Eurostar (UK) Limited to ensure that convenient through-ticketing is developed for passengers travelling to the Continent from outside the South-East. In addition, by 2007 regional rail users will be able to travel on high-speed trains into Euston and King's Cross for easy connections to international services departing from St. Pancras.

The SRA will also want to be able to consider the best use of the available capacity on the national network, and whether economic, social or environmental benefits would justify a subsidy to certain international through services. It will also have to recognise that certain parts of the country cannot be served by direct through services, as the ADL report confirmed.

The original clause here provides for a strategy that will address actual passenger and freight needs and certainly does not preclude the operation of regional services through the Channel Tunnel.

On freight, there is already an established international freight market through the Channel Tunnel which originates from throughout Great Britain. The recent decision by the Transport Council to liberalise access for international freight operators across member states' networks should strengthen the growth in that market. What is needed is a strategy which can help augment growth in this market. The original clause provides for such a strategy and would accompany the strategies developed under Clause 205(1), which would include reference to the promotion of freight traffic on the network.

We want the SRA to be looking widely at all options for encouraging international traffic and not tie it to securing international services if it does not consider that to be an appropriate option. I hope, then, that my noble friend will withdraw his amendment.

Lord Berkeley

I am grateful to my noble friend for that very full explanation. I believe that he has satisfied me on nearly every count. I shall certainly read Hansard carefully. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.

Clause 205 agreed to.

Lord Berkeley moved Amendment No. 286: After Clause 205, insert the following new clause—