National Identity Cards (Hansard, 17 May 1999)

§ Lord Williams of Mostyn
My Lords, we are actively considering the options but have not yet reached any firm conclusions on the possible introduction of national identity cards.

Baroness Sharpies
My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that somewhat encouraging reply. Is he aware that the new driving licence is a good step forward? Is he also aware that there is great concern about the increasing amount of fraud in this country? Perhaps we should hasten the introduction of a national identity card. What progress is being made as regards a pathway scheme to introduce a card in the area of social security?

§ Lord Williams of Mostyn
My Lords, I am aware that a number of those who have expressed views on this matter share the views implied by the noble Baroness's questions. As regards the matters of fraud and the driving licence, they are slightly different from that of identity cards. The majority of those who responded to the consultation paper were in favour of an identity card. Not all of those who were in favour were also in favour of compulsion. There are civil liberties implications. I know that some continental countries have identity cards on an obligatory basis, but we do not. As regards the more general question about smart cards being issued to those who come into contact with government departments, that matter is being given even more active consideration, partly on the basis that the noble Baroness identified.

§ Lord Mason of Barnsley
My Lords, in view of the fact that most European countries have adopted schemes of identification, either voluntary or mandatory, and that it is likely that we shall adopt one of those schemes in due course, is not this form of harmonisation eminently sensible, especially as regards the growing problems at border controls and the numbers of asylum seekers?

§ Lord Williams of Mostyn
My Lords, my noble friend Lord Mason of Barnsley is quite correct; most countries in continental Europe have identity cards. Four of them have nothing at all; namely, Denmark, Ireland, 8 Sweden and ourselves. Five have voluntary card schemes; namely, Austria, Finland, France, the Netherlands and Italy. Only six have compulsory card schemes; namely, Belgium, Germany, Greece, Luxembourg, Portugal and Spain. In due course we may grow ever closer to our colleagues in Europe. However, at the moment to implement such a measure we would need legislative time and about £600 million. If today's debate is anything to go by, the former may be more difficult to achieve than the latter.

§ Lord Dholakia
My Lords, does the Minister agree that there is a serious concern which will remain as regards matters of civil liberties, data collection and identity checks? However, does he not also agree that ample information about individuals is now collected on store cards, credit cards, driving licences and will be collected on passports when they are computerised? Is it not proper therefore for the Government to issue a consultation document to enable an informed debate to be held on this subject?

§ Lord Williams of Mostyn
My Lords, store cards and credit cards are, of course, voluntary. In a sense the acquisition of a driving licence is to a degree voluntary. In that case one is entering a regime which is not the object of compulsion. There are questions of civil liberties. I say to the noble Lord, Lord Dholakia, that relatively recently the previous government issued a consultation document entitled Identity Cards. It was that consultation document that I mentioned when replying to the noble Baroness, Lady Sharpies.

§ Baroness Gardner of Parkes
My Lords, is the Minister aware of the Australian system which does not comprise identity cards but tax reference numbers? Every individual must have a tax reference number if he or she wishes to claim any benefit of any kind. Could we not introduce this scheme, perhaps with the introduction of the tax credit system, which I understand will be administered by the appropriate department? That measure would act as an identity card in most cases.

§ Lord Williams of Mostyn
My Lords, that is a most useful suggestion that certainly needs further consideration. It is not one that had struck my mind in the general context of this Question. However, it certainly bears further examination. My noble friend Lady Hollis is present and will doubtless take up that suggestion.

§ Lord Cope of Berkeley
My Lords, as the Minister indicated, the previous government did much of the spade work on this issue. However, I was unable to make out from the precise formulation that the Minister used in his original reply whether the Government are drifting on purpose on this issue, or are they just drifting?

§ Lord Williams of Mostyn
My Lords, we never drift without purpose! Surely the definition of statesmanship is to drift with a purpose. The previous government 9 achieved a certain amount, but that did not involve much spade or much work really. They issued a consultation document and came to the conclusion that nothing much ought to be done, but of course their life was cruelly truncated.

§ Lord Davies of Coity
My Lords, does my noble friend the Minister agree that if a voluntary system of identity cards was introduced anyone who exercised his or her civil liberties under those circumstances and decided not to take out an identity card would be under greater suspicion if any inspection was made?

§ Lord Williams of Mostyn
My Lords, that might well be the consequence of such a scheme. That is why one must consider it with great care. One would assume, for instance, that this measure would have unanimous support from police forces up and clown the country. However, that unanimity does not exist because they are troubled by the possible breakdown o f relationships and the growth of suspicion between police services and the general public. Therefore this is not an easy matter. The scheme is extremely expensive. The previous government's estimate was about £600 million.

§ Lady Saltoun of Abernethy
My Lords, is the Minister old enough to remember the Second World War? I do not think he is. During the Second World War we all had to have identity cards. We were proud of our identity cards because they showed that we were British. In those days we were proud to be British.

§ Lord Williams of Mostyn
My Lords, the noble Lady is extremely generous to say that I cannot remember the war. For public consumption I readily agree. But privately, between the noble Lady and myself, the other day I found my ration card, which still had a large number of tokens for sweets. If things were retrospective, I could have a large bag of Rowntree's gums ready to hand out to your Lordships in the early hours of tomorrow morning.

§ Lord Moyne
My Lords, is the Minister aware that an identity card would be yet another personal item to mislay?

§ Lord Williams of Mostyn
My Lords, I cannot remember.