Freemasonry Declaration: Response (Hansard, 17 May 1999)

§ The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Williams of Mostyn)
My Lords, there has been a very good response from the professional judiciary and lay magistracy. Similarly, there has been a good response by Crown Prosecution Service special prosecutors. The Association of Chief Police Officers has written to each chief constable in England and Wales at the request of the Home Office. The first statistics should be available by October. Arrangements for the prison and probation services will be implemented shortly.

§ Lord Brookman
My Lords, I thank my noble friend the Minister for that reply. Does he agree with me that Alun Michael, the current Secretary of State for Wales, who is also the First Secretary of the Welsh Assembly, has set an example to everyone in this respect? He has ensured that, as part of the standing orders of the assembly, it is a requirement for members to register in the register of members' interests the fact that they are Freemasons against the backcloth that the assembly's standing orders commissioners did not recommend such a move.

§ Lord Williams of Mostyn
My Lords, as so often, the conduct of Welsh affairs is a model to all of us—

Noble Lords
Oh!

§ Lord Williams of Mostyn
—as your Lordships so readily agree.

§ Lord Janner of Braunstone
My Lords, does my noble friend the Minister recall that among the first organisations to be banned and demonised by the Nazis were the Freemasons? Speaking as someone who is not a Freemason, perhaps I may nevertheless urge my noble friend and the Government to take care in the way they deal with an organisation which has among its membership a huge number of very distinguished servants of this country.

§ Lord Williams of Mostyn
My Lords, many people I know of extremely high reputation in various walks of life exercise their free choice to be Freemasons. That is a very important point. Government policy is that in these delicate areas, which I can generally call the ambit of the criminal justice system, one ought to know whether or not those who participate in important 5 respects are Freemasons. However, I should stress that in a free country anyone is entitled to be a Freemason if he wants to be.

§ The Countess of Mar
My Lords, is the Minister aware that, as a member of the Immigration Appeal Tribunal, I received one of these questionnaires? My reply to it was: "No, I have been trying for years and cannot understand why no one will accept me." However, on a serious note, can the Minister say whether it was common practice to send such forms to women? If so, was it not a bit of a waste of time and money?

§ Lord Williams of Mostyn
My Lords, I never wanted to be a Freemason either in a male or female lodge. A large number of questionnaires from the Lord Chancellor's Department were sent out to the professional judiciary. Indeed, 5,290 were sent out. Those who declared that they were Freemasons included three women. Therefore, it was not entirely a waste of time.

§ Lord Burnham
My Lords, perhaps I may not actually declare an interest as such, but state that I am a Freemason. My saying so demonstrates that there is no reason why any Freemason should not say so. Can the Minister say what steps the Government are taking to ensure that anyone who declares membership is not in any way damaged in his employment by result of that membership?

§ Lord Williams of Mostyn
My Lords, both of the noble Lord's points are of great validity. Indeed, it is very important for someone with the scruples that he has to make that bold statement and demonstrate by example. There are quite delicate internal questions involved. I repeat: anyone in a free society is entitled to be a Freemason. It would be quite wrong, and wholly against any policy that this Government would stand to, for anyone to be prejudiced in his or her employment by virtue of membership of the Freemasonry.

§ Lord Hoyle
My Lords, my noble friend the Minister said that there had been a good response to the questionnaire. However, can he say whether that applies in respect of all sections? For example, can he give the House the different percentages in each case?

§ Lord Williams of Mostyn
My Lords, as I said, 5,290 questionnaires were sent out from the Lord Chancellor's Department. The response in 4,744 instances was a declaration by those consulted that they were non-Masons. In respect of "No reply received", the number was 213, with 65 males and five women not declaring their status. As regards the Police Service, the Home Office asked the ACPO to send out a letter. That letter went out on 7th April and, as I said earlier, we expect the response by October.
As regards the Attorney-General's Department, disclosure forms were sent out in September of last year to 2,097 lawyers. Nine said that they were Freemasons, although two of those declared themselves to be lapsed, 6 while 1,096 said that they were not Freemasons, 133 declined to make a declaration, and 859 did not return the form.

§ Lord Marsh
My Lords, as someone who is neither a Freemason nor a lawyer, perhaps I may ask the Minister a simple question. Surely any of the people in these categories would be guilty of an offence if they were found to be using any sort of influence improperly. Why then does it matter whether they are Freemasons as opposed to people with a particularly strong religious view or with strong party political views, neither of which they would have to declare?

§ Lord Williams of Mostyn
My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Marsh, says that he is neither a Freemason nor a lawyer, but, after all, no one is perfect. It is important that the public have confidence in the criminal justice system and believe that it is even-handed. The point at issue is that there is a perception that the Freemasons' loyalty is owed to other members of the craft. Noble Lords will say—rightly in most cases—that that is not the case. However, we have to bear in mind that there is a deep-seated perception that that may be so. I go back to what a noble Lord said originally. He is proud and content to declare his membership. I respectfully suggest that it might solve many problems if others adopted the robust view which the noble Lord indicated.

§ Lord Cope of Berkeley
My Lords, can the Minister tell us whether these public servants will also be asked about their membership of other organisations where gossip suggests that deals are done and attitudes are formed, such as golf clubs or, for that matter, Amnesty International?

§ Lord Williams of Mostyn
My Lords, I have been a supporter of Amnesty International. I was required to swear no oath when I became a supporter. Never having been a member of a golf club, I imagine that one does not have to swear an oath in that case. There are differences in practice which sometimes lead to differences in perception. My own view is that the more open, honest and—to take the noble Lord's example—honourable and scrupulous one is, the less doubt there can possibly be in these delicate areas.

§ Lord Swansea
My Lords, I must declare an interest as I have some pride in being a Freemason for more than 40 years. What action will be taken with regard to those mentioned in the Question who are required to disclose their Freemasonry membership, or those who decline to answer the question? Is the Minister aware that this demand will be regarded by those concerned as a gross invasion of their privacy and an unwarranted intrusion into their spare time activities? Have not the Government better things to do than conduct a witch-hunt against an honourable institution which has existed under royal patronage for nearly 300 years?

§ Lord Williams of Mostyn
My Lords, this is not a witch-hunt. I repeat for. I believe, the third time that 7 anyone is entitled to be a member of the body we are discussing. All that is required is that the public should know about membership. I believe that most people will be happy to do as the noble Lord suggested and say whether or not they are members. As I say, I accept that this is a delicate area. Quite a number of our fellow citizens are deeply suspicious of Freemasonry. There being nothing discreditable about Freemasonry, the more openness there is, the better.